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AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257026: Oct 6th 2018 at 6:29:51 PM

[up][up][up]Issue is, that still leaves a 5-4 split. Strategically, it would make sense to start with Garland.

Literally all that would have happened if his vote changed is requiring one guy to quit his daughter's wedding and Pence to vote.

Cool. He should have done that then. As it stands, he still voted to put a rapist on the Supreme Court. If you think I'll forgive that, you're dead wrong.

I know people don't want to push thiss issue too much because he still does vote Democrat, but, like, this isn't even a political reason for hatred. This is a moral one.

[up][awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome][awesome]

Edit: I always get the worst pagetoppers.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 6th 2018 at 9:37:33 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#257027: Oct 6th 2018 at 6:38:40 PM

Literally all that would have happened if his vote changed is requiring one guy to quit his daughter's wedding and Pence to vote.

Not even that, the vote was 48-50, at most he could made it 49-50, assuming that Murkowski didn’t switch to a yes the moment Manchin made his vote (which she probably would have, she abstained so that he couldn’t change his mind and alter the outcome).

Now I don’t agree with his choice but he had no impact on the outcome, he chose to support a lying rapist because he knew he couldn’t stop him and didn’t want to pay the political price for trying.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257028: Oct 6th 2018 at 6:40:19 PM

[up] That just makes him a coward.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
vicarious vicarious from NC, USA Since: Feb, 2013
vicarious
#257029: Oct 6th 2018 at 6:42:12 PM

That looks pretty accurate

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#257030: Oct 6th 2018 at 6:44:10 PM

He's further ahead in the polls than a bunch of Red State democrats who voted against Kavanaugh. Don't talk to me about the political price he would've had to pay. The political price for pissing off the Democrat voters is likely to be higher than what he would've payed otherwise.

Manchin voted against his political best interests here, which is why he's currently more disgusting to me than the Republicans. Rather than silencing his conscience for political gain, this is him voting his conscience despite potential political consequences. This is him choosing not to be a coward and standing up for what he believes in.

Which is, apparently, rapists on the Supreme Court.

Edited by Gilphon on Oct 6th 2018 at 9:44:51 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#257031: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:10:17 PM

So what you're saying is that most charitable readings of his actions is that he felt that not inconveniencing Pence was more important than making it clear he was against rape. What a swell guy. Though, to be fair, that's where Murkowski ended up, and she is lower on my shit list.

The guy who was at his daughter's wedding, actually. Who cares about Pence's vote?

But sure, let's just continue to spend the next month constantly arguing about whether it makes any sort of difference what vote Manchin makes and what the polls currently say against giving the GOP wonderful attack ammo. This isn't repeating the exact same conversation from yesterday at all.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#257032: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:12:04 PM

"Democrats are, after all, always held to a much higher standard than Republicans due to our much more fickle voterbase. We can't even sneeze without being accused of corruption."[

Just a thing here and I feel is looking in the wrong perpective, is not like dems need to more convincing thant a dems is that republicans used outlet like fox to rail with their user more frequently, therefore republican have a better reaction time.

Of course the downside of this is pretty much cut short the voters into a medium ghetto that they cant get out, the reps already start feeling this and using disruptive tactics as result.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#257033: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:12:13 PM

I mean, I get why people are upset about Manchin's vote, and I'm not going to try to talk anyone out of being upset about it.

I also get people who aren't super riled up about it, and don't think it actually changes much about how they view him (and it seems like he wasn't viewed largely favorable either way).

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#257034: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:14:56 PM

Manchin's useful as he is, is my opinion.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#257035: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:17:41 PM

Yeah, well, apparently a subject that was relevant yesterday continues to relevant today. How about that.

And he wouldn't have been giving the GOP any ammo that the rest of his colleagues weren't willing give them, including the ones facing closer races than him. Like, if, in November, every Red State Democrat except Manchin loses, I'll concede that you had a point. But that's a very unlikely scenario.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#257036: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:22:40 PM

[up] Honestly, it's irrelevant now.

I get the need to vent anger and disgust at Manchin, but playing the blame game is honestly just counterproductive at this point. It is despicable that he would vote for him, of course, but what good does it do to obsess over it? It just makes everybody even more miserable, and angry than we already are.

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 6th 2018 at 10:26:44 AM

AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257037: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:26:20 PM

[up][up][up] I don't care if he's useful, I don't care if it was the strategically sound thing to do. He. Voted. For. A. MONSTER.

There is more to this than mere usefulness. Regardless if he believed Ford or not, end result is he still signaled by his vote that Kavanaugh deserved to be in the SC. What he did was good for the Democrats, but not good for Liberalism or Progressivism. You know, what the Democrats represent.

[up][up][awesome][awesome][awesome]

[up] Because it proves people are willing to defend horrible things so long as our side does it. Its blatant party politics, and that gets me riled up. He is not worth defending because he's a Democrat. He's no better on this front than Collins, nor Flake, nor Mc Connell, nor anyone else who voted a rapist to the court.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 6th 2018 at 10:28:59 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#257038: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:28:17 PM

I mean, if you want me to be honest, not being an American, I have no absolutely no ability to affect how any of this plays out, so there's an argument that to be made that nothing I say here matters at all beyond it being a thing to do with emotional energy I otherwise have no outlet for.

But, in specific, Manchin matters because he's up for re-election. The question of whether tolerating him remains a moral compromise worth making is going to be very relevant to any WV voters that may be reading this.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#257039: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:31:53 PM

[up] I see what you're saying. That makes sense.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#257040: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:34:01 PM

Well Azure Paladin kinda bring a good point: ether to enter into party politics which could decend to "Things are right because my side did it" which is the problem with republican(mixing their desire to be in power with the idea they NEED to be in power) or kick him out for what could be seen as just "feel good moment".

And I dont know a this point.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257041: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:34:09 PM

I say if he wants to caucus with Democrats, let him be an independent like Sanders or King. But he should not be part of the party proper. He has no business being there if he is willing to engage in this level of Malice/Cowardice.

There he can be useful *outside* the party.

[up][tup] And that is not a decision that needs to be made right this minute, fortunately.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Oct 6th 2018 at 10:39:32 AM

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#257042: Oct 6th 2018 at 7:39:35 PM

A bit of interesting Investigation news reported by CNN yesterday that got buried due to the Kavanaugh stuff.

Special counsel's office has radio interviews between Roger Stone and alleged Wiki Leaks 'back channel' [1]

Audio of radio interviews between longtime Trump ally Roger Stone and the radio host he claimed was his back channel to Wiki Leaks recently came into possession of special counsel Robert Mueller's office, two sources with knowledge of the matter tell CNN.

The interviews between Stone and comedian Randy Credico took place between August 2016 and April 2017 on Credico's radio show, which aired on local New York station WBAI. Stone has claimed that Credico served as his intermediary to Wiki Leaks founder Julian Assange during the 2016 presidential election. Credico has denied the claim.

The special counsel's office is currently investigating Stone's possible involvement in Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 election and questions about the nature of his supposed back channel to Wiki Leaks.

CNN's K File has obtained audio of the interviews, in which Stone and Credico repeatedly discuss Wiki Leaks. In the interviews, you hear Credico ask Stone about the back channel and also cast doubt that the back channel exists.

While the interviews do not rule out the possibility Credico served as the back channel, the former radio host told CNN he believes the content of the interviews back up his denials.

"What you heard is what you heard because the radio doesn't lie," Credico told CNN.

Credico is a progressive activist in New York and outspoken supporter of Assange and Wiki Leaks.

The news that the radio interviews are in the hands of the special counsel's office shows that Mueller's team still appears to be examining Stone's potential involvement with Wiki Leaks, which released hacked emails from the Democratic National Committee and Hillary Clinton's campaign chairman during the 2016 presidential election.

The special counsel's office declined to comment.

Stone claimed during the election that he had communicated with Assange through a "back channel," "intermediary" or "mutual acquaintance." Stone has issued conflicting and often inaccurate statements on his knowledge about the timing and content of Wiki Leaks disclosures. He's also offered conflicting information in public comments about his source's relationship to Assange, repeatedly commenting in 2016 his source spoke with Assange. In his November 2017 Facebook post outing Credico, Stone said that Credico never confirmed Wiki Leaks information with Assange himself and instead had different Wiki Leaks sources.

Credico testified before the Mueller grand jury in September. He was subpoenaed to appear before the Senate's Russia investigation, but he has said he will assert his Fifth Amendment right against self-incrimination and would only testify it the panel offered immunity.

Stone did not respond to repeated emails seeking comments and hung up when called by CNN's K File team prior to publication. In an email sent two days after the story published, Stone said, "Your story is a false, misleading and inaccurate smear. A hatchet job."

Stone and Credico first discussed Wiki Leaks publicly on August 23, 2016, where Credico asked Stone about his claims to be in touch with Assange. "What about the October surprise? I mean, you've been in touch and indirectly with Julian Assange. Can you give us any kind of insight? Is there an October surprise happening?" Credico asked Stone.

"Well, first of all, I don't want to intimate in anyway that I control or have influence with the Assange because I do not," Stone said, adding he expects information to be released on the Clinton Foundation. "We have a mutual friend, somebody we both trust and therefore I am a recipient of pretty good information."

Assange appeared on Credico's program two days later on August 25. The host asked him about Stone's claim, and Assange denied he ever spoke with him. "Roger Stone is a rather canny spinmaster and we have not had any communications with him whatsoever," Assange told Credico.

Credico at the time told local New York radio he did not believe Stone had a back channel

"I can tell you, Roger has no connection at all with them, other than the fact that he may say it off the top of his head," Credico said on September 30, 2016. "But you know him, he's a lot of braggadocio and this is an outrage that this guy would you — because he could use it against me. I'm in London. I've had him on my radio show, am I an agent now?"

In March 2017, Stone again appeared on Credico's program. Stone had started to come under increased scrutiny for his comments suggesting a knowledge about the dates of Wiki Leaks disclosure. In that interview, Credico again raises the topic of the "back channel." At no point is Credico mentioned as this conduit. "You say you had a back channel to Wiki Leaks," Credico asks Stone.

"I've been completely honest about this. I described it various ways on the record in a speech to a large number of Trump supporters," Stone says. "I described it as a back channel. I think in another interview I may have said intermediary. In the third interview I said a mutual friend. They are all true. They're all consistent and what I learned from this person, and don't blame me if I had better sources than the mainstream media was very simply this, that Assange had a substantial of information on Hillary Clinton and he would drop it in October."

Earlier in the same show, before speaking with Stone, Credico again said he did not know who the Stone back channel was. He questioned if Stone had a back channel at all.

"I don't know who the back channel is," Credico said. "I don't think there is a back channel."

In April, a month later, Stone again appeared on Credico's program. Stone was asked about the House Intelligence Committee's investigation. Stone denied knowing the details of the Wiki Leaks content to be released, taking aim at Democratic House Intelligence Committee ranking member Adam Schiff, who had zeroed in on Stone's statements on Wiki Leaks.

"He claimed that I knew in advance about the scope and timing and content of Wikileaks disclosures in October of last year," Stone said. "You know, Wiki Leaks themselves, Randy, tweeted on July 31 of last year that they had enormous amount of material and Hillary Clinton and they would release it in October. So I'm not sure what the big state secret was here."

Mueller knows all

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 6th 2018 at 10:39:45 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257043: Oct 6th 2018 at 8:00:54 PM

I feel like I have to be the voice on the ground here because Manchin rules over a state I work in (if not live in—Huntington, WV is 12 miles away from my house in Kentucky).

He is a Trumpist.

Yes, he is officially a Democrat and has voted for a few good things but hes' very much appealing to the nativist, corporate, and white supremacy of the state. The reason he's not in danger from the public is he supports health care for the poor but otherwise is Trump's biggest buddy with all the hatred of immigration among other issues that implies.

It's why his Republican opponent has no traction.

Commercials are basically, "He's not REALLY Trump's best friend." Which is a nonstarter.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 6th 2018 at 8:00:36 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#257044: Oct 6th 2018 at 8:04:22 PM

So basically he;s a DINO? A Republican in disguise?

I'm not surprised by this one bit.

NickTheSwing Since: Aug, 2009
#257045: Oct 6th 2018 at 8:35:55 PM

And so the Supreme Court now has Bryce Fucking Walker on it.

This will be a stain difficult to remove, if not impossible.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#257046: Oct 6th 2018 at 8:36:49 PM

According to 538, Manchin votes in line with Trump 61% of the time.

For comparison, fellow Red State Democrats Doug Jones and Heidi Heitkamp vote in line with Trump 55% of the time.

For contrast I threw in a few random Democrats and they usually clocked in around 25%.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257047: Oct 6th 2018 at 8:42:51 PM

No, Manchin isn't a Republican.

He supports healthcare, education, and relief for the poor (in addition to big tax reliefs and government support for the mega-rich/failing corporations.)

Beat

As long as they're white.

Preferably men.

It's why there's no danger to Manchin's position in West Virginia. The poor whites are mostly behind him and don't have to choose between hating on immigrants and their grandmother dying. It's also why I believe he actually voted his conscience (such as it is) with Kavanaugh as he's the kind of bro legislator that would believe him or not think it's a big deal.

It's this better than a Republican? Yes....sort of?

Edit:

Holy crap, he's expected to support Trump 93% of the time? WOW. Even I didn't think he was that bad.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 6th 2018 at 8:53:58 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
AzurePaladin She/Her Pronouns from Forest of Magic Since: Apr, 2018 Relationship Status: Mu
She/Her Pronouns
#257048: Oct 6th 2018 at 8:59:39 PM

[up] As much as I generally agree, the "expected" is based on how WV voted for Trump. So he actually votes less for Trump than expected.

Of course, with Waters, Gillibrand, Brooker, Warren, Sanders, etc (The traditionally Left wing), they generally range from 9-15% voting with Trump. And even Schumer or Feinstein, more "Moderate" candidates, they make 25% AT MOST.

The awful things he says and does are burned into our cultural consciousness like a CRT display left on the same picture too long. -Fighteer
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#257049: Oct 6th 2018 at 9:05:59 PM

I think this commercial says everything.

He is VERY MUCH on the fence in the way that will get him the most votes from anyone who will support him.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 6th 2018 at 9:22:29 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#257050: Oct 6th 2018 at 9:26:39 PM

[up]7x What do you mean by "hatred of immigration"? He opposes Trump's policy of separating children from their families and he opposed the travel ban.


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