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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#256876: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:02:42 PM

I would suggest that people not engage with posters who have shown a constant desire to engage in nihilist despair, it’s nit good for the thread.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#256877: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:08:24 PM

[up][up]'Slow' as in, say, by 2020-2024?

And for the record, this isn't really news to me. Not completely. Hell, I think everyone knew that if something wasn't done, things were slowly but surely just going to keep getting worse. Which is why the midterms this year are so important.

Edited by kkhohoho on Oct 5th 2018 at 10:11:18 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256878: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:11:46 PM

And beyond voting in midterms, read up on local and state politics. City councils and state legislatures really matter. Get involved.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 5th 2018 at 11:14:09 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#256879: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:15:16 PM

[up][up] There’s not really any strict timeline for things like that. It gets better, it gets worse, it gets better again. Things aren’t going to trend in the exact same direction forever.

We just need to prevent them from doing irreparable damage to our institutions while things are doing worse.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 5th 2018 at 8:17:35 AM

They should have sent a poet.
TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#256880: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:18:08 PM

"American totalitarianism has always been to the tune of a populist strongman, not a Nazi state"

Wait whats the difference? I thought those were the same thing, or close to it?

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#256881: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:18:19 PM

[up][up]Right. And the most immediate thing we can do right now is vote. If we can at least get the House, maybe we can stem the bleeding.

Edited by kkhohoho on Oct 5th 2018 at 10:20:40 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256882: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:20:37 PM

Counterpoint: We Are Not the Resistance. Donald Trump is the one who is pushing back against the new nation that’s struggling to be born.

Column by Professor Michelle Alexander, the author of The New Jim Crow.

Resistance is a reactive state of mind. While it can be necessary for survival and to prevent catastrophic harm, it can also tempt us to set our sights too low and to restrict our field of vision to the next election cycle, leading us to forget our ultimate purpose and place in history.

The disorienting nature of Trump’s presidency has already managed to obscure what should be an obvious fact: Viewed from the broad sweep of history, Donald Trump is the resistance. We are not.

Those of us who are committed to the radical evolution of American democracy are not merely resisting an unwanted reality. To the contrary, the struggle for human freedom and dignity extends back centuries and is likely to continue for generations to come.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 5th 2018 at 11:23:04 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#256883: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:21:12 PM

[up][up][up] Two very different flavors of totalitarianism.

[up][up] Exactly. Right now our priority should be damage control, and then getting our hands back on the levers.

[down] Ehhhhh...sort of. Fascism, and Nazism in particular, is heavily elitist. It’s not typically defined as a populist movement. Hitler in particular was about as far from a populist as a fascist could get. As Cap mentioned on the last page, an American dictator would probably look more like Turkey’s Erdogan.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 5th 2018 at 8:27:48 AM

They should have sent a poet.
BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#256884: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:22:21 PM

@archonspeaks: Hitler was a populist strong man.

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#256885: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:24:33 PM

[up] Why does everyone always go to Hitler as the default populist strongman?

BigMadDraco Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#256886: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:37:29 PM

[up]I'm using that because archonspeaks was saying that it would be a populist strong man rather than a Nazi regime. I was pointing out that the latter was lead by someone who was the former.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#256887: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:39:36 PM

[up]He didn't say it was a 'populist strong man'. He said it was a populist regime. Big difference.

TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#256888: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:39:51 PM

[up][up][up]I dunno. Maybe all those photos amd clips of him making speeches amd stuff that permeates the popular conscious.

So I guess I should ask what the difference between Erdogan and Hitler is?

Edited by TheWanted on Oct 5th 2018 at 8:44:44 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256889: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:44:22 PM

[up] No. That’s way off topic. I’m just gonna link this article on US politics again since it got lost in the was Hitler populist debate.

Professor Michelle Alexander doesn’t think we’re the resistance- it’s Trump who’s fighting the tide.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 5th 2018 at 11:47:12 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#256890: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:45:14 PM

Fascism and populism are very different things. Frankly this is defining basic terms which is more appropriate for the General Politics thread.

It’s sort of a rectangles and squares situation as well, the two overlap in parts but the essential difference is that the two emphasize struggle against very different enemies.

Populism is also incredibly thin as well as actual definitions, it’s typically just demagoguery in service of a variety of agendas, with its defining feature being anti-elite agitation. Fascism, on the other hand, is heavily regimented and focuses on conflict with exterior enemies.

Nazi-style fascism is highly unlikely to find traction in the US, but religious populism does pretty well.

[down] Yeah, any further questions can be discussed there.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 5th 2018 at 9:13:17 AM

They should have sent a poet.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256891: Oct 5th 2018 at 8:54:28 PM

Frankly this is defining basic terms which is more appropriate for the General Politics thread.

Maybe this tangent should go over there then?

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#256892: Oct 5th 2018 at 9:13:27 PM

[up][up][up]. Like I have said, we are winning the culture war. I have in the past described the Trump win as the last explosive temper tantrum of those who do not want to lose their privilege.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#256893: Oct 5th 2018 at 9:21:43 PM

Not to mention left-wing populists do exist, and they can be just as nasty as right-wing ones (just ask South America). There are no left-wing Fascists.

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#256894: Oct 5th 2018 at 9:26:17 PM

Let's stay on US politics, please.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from New Zealand (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#256895: Oct 5th 2018 at 11:32:17 PM

If the president and vice president are taken out, someone becomes the acting president and a special election is made later that year(assuming this doesn't happen on an election year). How does that special election work? Who are chosen as candidates? How has this applied in the different points of "who's after the VP in succsession", being president pro tempore(until 1880s), secretary of state(until 1947) and speaker of the house(current)

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#256896: Oct 6th 2018 at 12:45:20 AM

Considering we haven't have anything happen to both the President and the VP at the same time (And only maybe three deaths total while the man was in office) it hasn't applied at all ever.

This is something you could actually go to wikipedia for to get the cliff notes version. And then go to the bottom of that page to find the sources that go into more detail. Maybe try researching on your own instead of asking your homework questions here?

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#256897: Oct 6th 2018 at 1:06:39 AM

Well, there won't be a special election. The US Constitution has no special elections except for Congress.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#256898: Oct 6th 2018 at 1:10:40 AM

[up][up][up] Pretty sure that’s wrong? Presidential elections are held every four years, no exceptions. Should the President and Vice President both die in office, the next in the line of succession is the Speaker of the House. There are no special elections.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Oct 6th 2018 at 4:13:49 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#256899: Oct 6th 2018 at 1:30:18 AM

There does indeed seem not to be any such provision for a special election, which is odd, considering that it's entirely possible that a decapitation strike that takes out both the POTUS and VPOTUS could happen before midterms, leaving the Acting President to potentially change due to a Congressional election. On that note, the "bumping provision" of the current Presidential Succession Act is bullshit. Suppose the POTUS, VP, Speaker, and Senate President pro Tempore are all killed at once - the Secretary of State becomes Acting President. Now suppose the Senate immediately appoints the next most senior Senator in the majority party Senate President pro Tempore. They are now Acting President. And then the House finally settles on a new Speaker. They then become Acting President. It's a absolute hell for any sort of attempt to re-establish stable governance.

Also, can an Acting President appoint a Vice President under the 25th Amendment? Because if so, they'd logically immediately become President, which is kind of crazy.

Edited by Balmung on Oct 6th 2018 at 3:34:04 AM

Imca (Veteran)
#256900: Oct 6th 2018 at 1:34:12 AM

I get the feeling that is one of many things, that as we have learned this election.... was just never clarified because they never thought it would be needed.


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