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megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#256802: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:07:56 PM

Also, by this reasoning, the Democrats may as well all have voted for Kavanaugh because it wasn't going to change anything.
Actually, them doing so would have dire consequences for their re-election chances, because I'm pretty sure their Democrat-identifying constituents would be helluva pissed at them doing that.

[nja]'d by Fourthspartan56.

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 5th 2018 at 4:10:59 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256803: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:08:50 PM

If you betray your principles merely to retain power, your principles are essentially meaningless.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#256804: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:10:40 PM

There's no point in dying on a genuinely 100% indefensible hill when you have a genuine shot at a later date to do something meaningful.

Oh really when?
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#256805: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:10:47 PM

If you betray your principles merely to retain power, your principles are essentially meaningless.

It's not betraying your principles if your actions don't make a difference and by retaining power you do have the opportunity.

How is this hard to understand? Nothing changed. Manchin could be climbing Mt Everest and trying to build a spaceship at the same time for all the difference it makes.

The long and short of it is that if Manchin wouldn't reliably vote Dem when it was useful, they'd need 4 republican defections to do anything.

Edited by RainehDaze on Oct 5th 2018 at 2:11:10 PM

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#256806: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:11:04 PM

[up][up][up]This

And it's amazing that "don't vote to confirm the rapist" is being treated like an unreasonable purity test

Edited by Balmung on Oct 5th 2018 at 8:14:44 AM

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#256807: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:11:26 PM

@wisewillow: Even if it's for the sake of having a chance to uphold them when/if a future vote comes where your voice will decide whether or not the motion passes? That's extremely short-sighted and is basically an endorsement of Principles Zealot and Suicidal Pacifism, because these two are what happens when you stick to your principles even when all the facts say that you should not.

[nja]'d to hell.

Edited by MarqFJA on Oct 5th 2018 at 4:13:00 PM

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#256808: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:12:24 PM

It's one thing to make a principled stand. It's another to destroy your chances of ever making such a stand again in the future, especially when one of those might be one you can win.

Oh really when?
Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#256809: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:14:03 PM

He was also predicted to retain his seat even if he voted against Brett Kavanaugh. It wouldn't even be hard to justify to his base.

This isn't some masterful nine-dimensional checkers move he made.

Edited by Balmung on Oct 5th 2018 at 8:14:10 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#256810: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:14:07 PM

And it's amazing that "don't vote to confirm the rapist" is being treated like an unreasonable purity test

It's called pragmatism.

Manchin's vote here is entirely symbolic and the electorate he's playing to is not the general Democrat constituency.

He was also predicted to retain his seat even if he voted against Brett Kavanaugh. It wouldn't even be hard to justify to his base.

We sure want to take unnecessary risks in a potentially close senate battle, huh?

Edited by RainehDaze on Oct 5th 2018 at 2:14:16 PM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#256811: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:16:23 PM

Some positive news, via The NY Times, because we need it.

New York Regulators Examine the Trump Family’s Tax Schemes

New York City officials said on Thursday that they had joined state regulators in examining whether President Trump and his family underpaid taxes on his father’s real estate empire over several decades.

The announcement came in response to an investigation published this week in The New York Times that showed how Mr. Trump had participated in dubious tax schemes during the 1990s, including instances of outright fraud, that greatly increased the fortune he received from his parents.

“We are now just starting to pore through the information,” said Dean Fuleihan, the city’s first deputy mayor.

One type of tax that the city will examine is the real estate transfer tax. Officials said the extremely low valuations the Trump family placed on buildings that passed from Fred C. Trump to his children through trusts could have resulted in underpaid transfer taxes.

The Times reported that through several aggressive and potentially illegal maneuvers, the Trumps claimed that 25 apartment complexes transferred to Donald Trump and his siblings from their father were worth just $41.4 million. The Trumps sold those buildings within a decade for more than 16 times that amount.

Mr. Fuleihan said the city would also explore whether another tax avoidance maneuver by Mr. Trump and his siblings resulted in Fred Trump’s empire underpaying property taxes.

That maneuver involved a company, created by the Trump family in 1992, called All County Building Supply & Maintenance. All County existed largely on paper, The Times found. Its work, such as it was, consisted of adding 20 percent or more to the cost of goods and services bought by Fred Trump. The padded amount was split between Donald Trump and his siblings, essentially a gift from their father that avoided the 55 percent gift tax at the time.

Mr. Fuleihan said the scheme as described by The Times would have artificially driven down the profitability of Fred Trump’s buildings. And because city property taxes on rental buildings are based in part on profits reported by owners, All County would have had the effect of lowering the property tax burden.

Mr. Fuleihan said city and state agencies are cooperating on the effort. The State Department of Taxation and Finance announced on Wednesday that it was “pursuing all appropriate avenues of investigation.”

Mr. Trump did not respond to requests for an interview for The Times’s article, but a lawyer for the president, Charles J. Harder, said in a statement that “there was no fraud or tax evasion by anyone.”

Another state agency is looking into whether tenants in Fred Trump’s rent-regulated apartments saw their rents unduly increased because the Trumps used the padded All County invoices to apply for rent increases, as The Times found. State regulations allow owners of rent-regulated buildings to apply for increases to recover the “actual and verified cost” of some improvements to buildings, said Freeman Klopott, a spokesman for the State Division of Housing and Community Renewal.

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 5th 2018 at 9:16:04 AM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256812: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:17:16 PM

I stand by what I said. Heitkamp is in a red state too, and she’s voting no because she wants to be able to look at herself in the mirror.

If you play along with the monsters whenever it is convenient or expeditious to do so, you will become one of them.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#256813: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:18:22 PM

Manchin is trash, but he's a Democrat in the seat, useful for those areas where his garbage constituents and Democratic policy aims intersect.

The real goal should be to make him obsolete by electing a comfortable bulwark of real Democrats elsewhere.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#256814: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:18:45 PM

Calling it now.

Republicans keep house, gain senate seats.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#256815: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:18:51 PM

Do you wanna actually win or do you wanna just feel good about yourself and let Republican policies continue?

Oh really when?
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#256816: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:19:28 PM

If Manchin is the deciding vote against major Democrat party policy, then complain. Otherwise, bitching about meaningless gestures you don't like but his voters might is selfish.

It's him or an actual Republican. It's a non-choice.

Calling it now.

Republicans keep house, gain senate seats.

Possible but a very outside chance, and on the basis of today's events, increasingly unlikely.

Edited by RainehDaze on Oct 5th 2018 at 2:19:44 PM

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256817: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:20:53 PM

Do not vote for the attempted rapist who lies constantly. I am not setting an impossible task here.

Edit: here’s a lengthy summary of all the evidence regarding Kavanaugh.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 5th 2018 at 9:24:30 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#256818: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:21:06 PM

Manchin is trash, but he's a Democrat in the seat, useful for those areas where his garbage constituents and Democratic policy aims intersect. The real goal should be to make him obsolete by electing a comfortable bulwark of real Democrats elsewhere.

Not really sure how that follows. A lot of the "elsewhere" we're talking about would put Democrats in a similar position to him.

Like, I'm not saying anything about liking Manchin, but I really don't see how anything that's going on now would make him "obsolete". That only happens by moving the overton window in general.

Edited by LSBK on Oct 5th 2018 at 8:21:39 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#256819: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:24:58 PM

Do not vote for the attempted rapist who lies constantly. I am not setting an impossible task here.

On the balance of probabilities, it seems that the swing voters in WV would be more negatively affected by Manchin adopting your preferred position. Therefore, appeasing more WV voters is the only choice.

If the Dems do not foolishly lose seats they have a chance of taking the Senate entirely. This is common sense. Do not risk a seat. Do not place symbolic purity (this or considering packing the court or playing fair) above actually getting the lunatics out of power.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#256820: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:25:16 PM

Manchin is not threatened in West Virginia, not by a Kavanaugh vote or anything else, he's got the entirety of the Trump supporters in the state behind him despite his past voting.

Attempts by his opponents to out Trump him have failed miserably.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256821: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:26:25 PM

Manchin announced his decision before Collins. And again, not voting for an ATTEMPTED RAPIST is not “symbolic”, it’s showing the bare goddamn minimum of decency.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#256822: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:28:09 PM

In this situation it's still saying "expose a weak spot that the GOP can try their hardest to exploit". It's not worth it.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#256823: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:31:43 PM

That’s a lovely sentiment, go tell it to all the women, including women on these forums, who are victims of sexual assault.

Edit: and male victims of sexual assault.

Edited by wisewillow on Oct 5th 2018 at 9:33:03 AM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#256824: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:34:06 PM

The women in West Virginia were probably cheering when Trump made fun of Dr. Ford. Manchin is a product of the state he represents. He's useless as a Democrat unless you happen to arrive on that thin sliver of issues where his arch-fascist culture warrior voters and the Democratic platform intersect, but that's still better than having a GOP thug in the seat.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Oct 5th 2018 at 9:36:48 AM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#256825: Oct 5th 2018 at 6:34:33 PM

@TheWanted: It's unlikely that the GOP will hold the house, but they very easily could make gains in the senate. Like, we're now at 7:9 odds in favor of the GOP retaining control over the senate, and it's highly plausible they'd gain a net seat if the election were held today.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Oct 5th 2018 at 9:34:37 AM


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