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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254451: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:11:05 PM

To me, calling something an empire raises two questions: "How did it become an empire?" and "How is it still an empire?"

The answers are almost never pleasant, so...well, I'm kind of iffy about not having a problem with that. I don't think that's a label to be accepted so readily.

We became an empire through a combination of our large resource base, population, lack of enemies who could reliably project power at our heartlands, and the devastation that occurred in the rest of the developed world during WW 1 and 2.

So yeah, I'm not especially bothered by our empire or its existence. Even if I'm not universally supportive of all the things we've done.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:11:06 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#254452: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:41:58 PM

I mean, I was going for something a little deeper than that, like how we got into such a beneficial position to begin with.

Which, of course, was in large part thanks to the exploitation and genocide of millions of people, which we justified by saying that they were of course less-civilized than us, not being, you know, white. That's kind of the important part of any given empire - the resources didn't just fall into our laps.

Furthermore, I'd argue that our little world police addiction isn't merely a misuse of imperial power, but rather something that's expected of it. We inherited Vietnam from the French, after all, and of course the most famous empire of them all, the British, put down more than its share of uprisings.

Now, I'm not going to call for the annihilation of America - I'm no anarchist, and I believe we have and can still do great things. But I think that if we want our country to be a better place, we all - not just on the right, but on the left as well, actually - need to acknowledge that we've always been kind of fucked up.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:42:02 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#254453: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:49:04 PM

The US losing military and economic dominance isn’t likely in any of our lifetimes or beyond. This is doubly true for military dominance. Hoping it’ll happen is nothing more than fantasy at this point. We should focus on making the US the best it can possibly be.

Edited by archonspeaks on Sep 10th 2018 at 4:52:23 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254454: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:52:25 PM

The US losing military and economic dominance isn’t likely in any of our lifetimes or beyond. This is doubly true for military dominance. Hoping it’ll happen is nothing more than fantasy at this point. We should focus on making the US the best it can possibly be.

Well said, beyond one's opinion about the ethical value of the United States hegemony its power is very real and short of some extraordinary threat there's no real likelihood of it changing.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:52:37 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#254455: Sep 10th 2018 at 4:54:14 PM

[up][up][up]I mean every place has been kind of fucked up. Some more than others, and you'd probably rightfully put America in the "more than others pin".

Still, if we're using a definition of the word "empire" that includes the United States because it's subsections are called "states" it strikes me as a bit silly to get hung up on the actual word.

Edited by LSBK on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:26:25 AM

phantom1 Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#254456: Sep 10th 2018 at 5:03:58 PM

I would say the US is an empire because of Puerto Rico and other territories not because it's made up of states (of course that makes it not the only one currently)

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#254457: Sep 10th 2018 at 5:04:06 PM

[up][up] Well yeah, but I think that simply makes it even more important to acknowledge it.

And yeah, that is kind of silly, I think - I'm more concerned with the spirit of the thing than the letter.

[up] And yeah, I agree with Phantom.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Sep 10th 2018 at 8:04:06 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#254458: Sep 10th 2018 at 5:06:13 PM

We are at least no longer an expansionist empire.

Edited by M84 on Sep 10th 2018 at 8:08:30 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254459: Sep 10th 2018 at 5:07:55 PM

Well yeah, but I think that simply makes it even more important to acknowledge it.

To clarify, are you talking about the United States as a whole or this thread in particular?

Because if it's the former then I completely agree, but if it's the latter then you're kind of preaching to the choir. I'm one of the people here who's probably more positive about our hegemony then others and I have no problem acknowledging that it's not free of issues.

I don't think anyone ignores the negative actions that the US has gotten involved in.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#254460: Sep 10th 2018 at 5:09:52 PM

I would say the US is an empire because of Puerto Rico and other territories not because it's made up of states (of course that makes it not the only one currently)

When the word was first used, I thought that's what the people were talking about. An issue I still see as a bit blurry because the issue of what those territories even want to be isn't clear cut in any of them (at least not that I'm aware, please correct me if I'm wrong).

Edited by LSBK on Sep 10th 2018 at 7:10:11 AM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#254461: Sep 10th 2018 at 5:23:06 PM

To clarify, are you talking about the United States as a whole or this thread in particular?

Well, for the most part and most importantly, the former, but...well, to be perfectly honest, man, I just don't really think that the hegemony has much to merit positivity?

Oh God! Natural light!
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#254462: Sep 10th 2018 at 5:48:18 PM

Welp, no surprises here, Trump really isn't mentally stable.

Thousands of mental health professionals agree with Woodward and the New York Times op-ed author: Trump is dangerous

Bob Woodward's new book, "Fear," describes a "nervous breakdown of Trump's presidency." Earlier this year, Michael Wolff's "Fire and Fury" offered a similar portrayal.

Now, an op-ed in The New York Times by an anonymous "senior White House official" describes how deeply the troubles in this administration run and what effort is required to protect the nation.

None of this is a surprise to those of us who, 18 months ago, put together our own public service book, "The Dangerous Case of Donald Trump: 27 Psychiatrists and Mental Health Experts Assess a President."

Edited by AngelusNox on Sep 10th 2018 at 9:50:26 AM

Inter arma enim silent leges
Ominae Since: Jul, 2010
#254463: Sep 10th 2018 at 6:26:36 PM

Now AP/AFP has picked up news that mentions Bolton going after ICC officials and judges if they start to have any ideas of having Americans arrested/prosecuted for potential war crimes.

Taking a page from Duterte I see, although this stance was pretty old back in the day.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#254464: Sep 10th 2018 at 6:51:23 PM

Okay, so when is Europe going to get guns that don't melt?

On that question: it would be absolutely trivial (it's not like it's a continent short on arms manufacturers). Now, agreeing on gun specs beyond ammo is a bigger ask. So much custom military hardware going around.

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#254465: Sep 10th 2018 at 8:51:57 PM

[up] Not to mention the whole melting thing is a G36-specific problem. A lot of the newer European assault rifles are much better.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#254466: Sep 10th 2018 at 9:49:46 PM

Like what?

Oh really when?
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#254467: Sep 10th 2018 at 9:57:43 PM

[up] The FNC, the F2000, the SCAR, the HK 416, etc.

Edited by CookingCat on Sep 10th 2018 at 10:09:23 AM

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#254468: Sep 10th 2018 at 10:27:39 PM

The F2000 is a special forces toy that's largely been replaced by AR variants, the FNC is on the way out, and the SCAR never quite got a proper foothold and is only used by a handful of units in a few different countries.

The 416 is about the only one that you could call truly popular. For good reason though.

Edited by LeGarcon on Sep 10th 2018 at 1:30:10 PM

Oh really when?
TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#254469: Sep 10th 2018 at 10:35:54 PM

To be fair, the G36-affair was inconsistent as hell. A commission report basically vindicated them, if not the influence of HK. They're replacing it regardless, as they need the contracts.

Bit of an off-topic detour, but there you go. A lot of business and politics go into the industry.

Edited by TerminusEst on Sep 10th 2018 at 10:39:47 AM

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
Steven (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#254470: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:08:16 PM

@Trump's mental health

Reminds me of last year when his "doctor" said he was in perfect health physically and mentally.

Remember, these idiots drive, fuck, and vote. Not always in that order.
rmctagg09 The Wanderer from Brooklyn, NY (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: I won't say I'm in love
The Wanderer
#254471: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:12:58 PM

Native Americans Propose Change To Yellowstone Landmark Names:

On a cold January day more than a century ago, U.S. troops massacred nearly 200 Piikani people on a Montana river bank. Most were women, children and old folks.

"It's hard to imagine," Chief Stanley Charles Grier of the Piikani Nation in Alberta, Canada said.

The people killed were his ancestors and accounts of the massacre are brutal. Soldiers killed a mother breastfeeding her baby. They shot sick people hiding under blankets.

"Survivors were basically executed by axes," Grier says. "That's pretty barbaric."

The man who helped perpetrate this massacre was Army Lt. Gustavus Doane. He later went on to explore parts of Yellowstone and his compatriots named Mount Doane after him. The name stuck, and Grier wants to change it.

"Lieutenant Doane led that attack and fully implemented the massacre," he says. "We feel that's an atrocity to humanity and it's essentially a war crime."

Massacres like this were a major part of what some historians call a forgotten genocide during the colonization and settlement of the American West. The perpetrators of these massacres were sometimes honored with mountains, valleys and towns.

Take U.S. Army General William Harney. He was nicknamed "Woman Killer" after he helped massacre nearly 100 Lakota in 1855. But a mountain named after him was renamed in 2016.

Now tribes are trying to do something similar in Yellowstone National Park. Last September, leaders from across North America gathered there and asked the federal government to change the name of Mount Doane to First Peoples Mountain.

They also want to rename the iconic Hayden Valley.

The person it's named after was one of the first surveyors of Yellowstone, Ferdinand Hayden. He compiled a geological survey that called for the extermination of American Indians.

"He basically incited this hatred towards indigenous peoples at that time in his policies and in his written statements," Grier says.

But earlier this year, Park County commissioners in Wyoming voted against changing Mount Doane and Hayden Valley. They said people there like the names. They're used to them.

"This has nothing to do with the Native Americans," Jake Fulkerson, vice chairman of the Park County commissioners, says. "There was one article we saw that said commissioners against the Indians or something and that's garbage."

According to Fulkerson, the whole issue is overblown.

"If you go around digging up dirt on people and changing names everywhere, I mean, once this horse leaves the barn, where does it end?" he says.

But he and the other county commissioners don't make the ultimate decision. They can only make a recommendation to a federal body that will. It's called the U.S. Board On Geographic Names.

Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#254472: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:33:18 PM

Lots of Americans need their names stripped from things.

Mind you, we're going to make no traction with Columbus.

We WERE making progress with Jackson but Trump stepped in to prevent Harriet Tubman from replacing him.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#254473: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:34:23 PM

I am fairly sure that not every person that has a mountain/river/valley named after them is a dick so that guy's counterargument sounds a little hyperbolic at least. Although I'd probably advise that a better name be picked than "First Peoples Mountain" - did it have a local name by indigenous people?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#254474: Sep 10th 2018 at 11:36:46 PM

[up]If it had a name, that name is probably long forgotten. Likely because the asshole whom the mountain is currently named after killed off so many of the people who knew the name.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#254475: Sep 11th 2018 at 12:04:39 AM

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/what-will-happen-stone-mountain-americas-largest-confederate-memorial-180964588/

Mind you, I wish they'd get some dynamite and deal with this.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Sep 11th 2018 at 12:07:36 PM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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