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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#254076: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:30:12 PM

[up] Fuck you, guys. We appreciate that you're helping to stop Trump from steering the country off of a bridge, but your party elected him. Don't pretend you aren't complicit.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254077: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:31:20 PM

Well said, it's a good start for redemption but it doesn't wipe away their complicity.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2018 at 4:30:50 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#254078: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:32:47 PM

[up][up][awesome]

My thoughts as well-someone still working that high up this late into this regime is actively complicit in so much they do not have a shred of moral fiber left.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#254079: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:33:57 PM

I mean, atonement is a thing and I appreciate them trying to clean up their mess, but it's certainly a "too little, too late."

It's like apologizing for shooting me in the leg by getting a band-aid.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Mario1995 The Dishonorable from Atlanta Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
The Dishonorable
#254080: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:34:36 PM

I love how he pulls off a No True Scotsman when he says Trump's ideas don't represent the Republican Party. Of course they do. His policies are the culmination of those ideas. His supposed "anti-trade tactics" are really attempts to kneecap American workers with bad deals that exclusively benefit corporations and no one else.

Basically, he wants a TPP on steroids.

Edited by Mario1995 on Sep 5th 2018 at 4:35:06 AM

"The devil's got all the good gear. What's God got? The Inspiral Carpets and nuns. Fuck that." - Liam Gallagher
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#254081: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:35:24 PM

[up] I have similar mixed feelings about it.

On one hand, his staffers giving the signed in triplicate, sent in, sent back, queried, lost, found, subjected to public inquiry, lost again, and finally buried in soft peat for three months and recycled as firelighters treatment to everything Trump wants to do, until he forgets about it in favor of his next hair-brained idea highly amusing, and am grateful that someone is actively trying to keep him from killing us all.

On the other hand, they brought this upon themselves.

Edited by megaeliz on Sep 5th 2018 at 4:38:30 AM

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#254082: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:36:51 PM

By the way, how Trump and the GOP got elected and their policies are strikingly similar to Apartheid South Africa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apartheid . "As the voting system was disproportionately weighted in favour of rural constituencies and the Transvaal in particular, the 1948 election catapulted the Herenigde Nasionale Party from a small minority party to a commanding position with an eight-vote parliamentary lead."

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254083: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:38:30 PM

It's common for Fascist and Reactionary parties to be supported by rural people and the petite bourgeoisie just like the Republicans.

The Republicans are certainly not unprecedented as an ideology, they're simply our homegrown version of fascism with its own American twists.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2018 at 4:38:25 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#254084: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:40:18 PM

[up] Did Apartheid count as Fascist? People are thinking too far back. Think Apartheid South Africa, that's a better comparison to this administration than Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254085: Sep 5th 2018 at 1:58:08 PM

[up]Hmm, I'm not sure.

At the very least they were obviously racial supremacists, but that obviously doesn't require them to be fascist.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#254086: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:04:13 PM

Fascism is about methods. The methods by which the white minority maintained apartheid were pretty damn fascist.

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#254087: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:06:36 PM

The apartheid government was more pseudo- or proto-fascist than properly fascist. They had a lot of the right elements, like the racial supremacy and the stabbed in the back mythos, but they never really put them together into proper fascism.

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254088: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:18:45 PM

Fascism is about methods. The methods by which the white minority maintained apartheid were pretty damn fascist.

No it's not.

Fascism is about principles not just methods. Without a cult of machismo, appeals to tradition, or other common traits an ideology cannot accurately said to be fascist.

The apartheid government was more pseudo- or proto-fascist than properly fascist. They had a lot of the right elements, like the racial supremacy and the stabbed in the back mythos, but they never really put them together into proper fascism.

Interesting, this makes sense.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#254089: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:20:12 PM

Fascism I typically define along the following lines: It's a totalitarian political style which seeks to create conformity and social unity, and does so by spreading a common hatred of an invoked enemy.

Leviticus 19:34
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254090: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:26:38 PM

[up]I'm going to be honest, no offense meant but this is a extremely vague definition.

It covers literally any totalitarian ideologies like Italian Fascism, Marxist Leninism, or Baathism to name a few.

That just isn't useful from an academic or practical perspective.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2018 at 5:29:18 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#254091: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:30:30 PM

[up][up][up] The core of fascism, or at least its defining characteristic is probably what you could describe as “mythic ultranationalism”. It’s an almost cultish obsession with the state, from within the state. Think the insane mythology the Nazis built around Germany and things like that.

Simply being ultranationalist and persecuting minorities isn’t really enough. Lots of dictatorships have those. They’re critical parts of fascism, but they don’t combine together into fascism without that state mythos.

Edited by archonspeaks on Sep 5th 2018 at 2:33:19 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254092: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:31:10 PM

[up]Well said.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#254093: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:34:00 PM

I understand it's more like a Bingo than a tic tac toe.

  • Militancy
  • Ethnocenticism
  • An all-powerful leader
  • A cult of the state
  • Death worship
  • A contempt for civil rights
  • Enemy politics

And so on

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#254094: Sep 5th 2018 at 2:41:16 PM

[up] Well, the thing is it could be all of that and still not really be fascist. It’s a very tricky thing to pin down.

That mythological treatment of the state is what really ties all these disparate elements together into fascism. You’ll notice that fascist states all have the same threads as far as the supremacy of their establishment, their legacy, and their national grandeur. They all have the same shades of millenarianism, and the backstory to match.

There are a lot of different definitions of fascism, but that’s the characteristic that really makes or breaks it.

They should have sent a poet.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#254096: Sep 5th 2018 at 3:36:43 PM

I'd say that any ideology that honors "freedom," even freedom for the few, is not really fascist - fascism is all about the individual as a tool of the nation. Apartheid and American neo-Confederatism thus don't qualify.

Edited by Ramidel on Sep 5th 2018 at 2:36:25 AM

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#254097: Sep 5th 2018 at 3:40:18 PM

[up][up]Would make sense. I do like the term, but I've only seen "lodestar" used in one other modern(ish) context. So it becomes a watchword for people that used it frequently.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254098: Sep 5th 2018 at 3:42:13 PM

[up][up]You think either ideology really values "freedom"? Sure it values the freedom of the aristocrats of the in-group but the exact same thing could be said of fascist ideologies and they certainly do not value freedom as a discrete concept.

Frankly I find this to be an extremely unconvincing position.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#254099: Sep 5th 2018 at 3:46:11 PM

In a way that’s correct, though I’ll modify it a little. In a lot of basic totalitarian states, the state serves the needs of those elites. In a fascist state, they serve the needs of the state. It’s not really so much about freedom, as both fascist states and regular dictatorships co-opt the language of freedom.

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#254100: Sep 5th 2018 at 3:48:59 PM

[up]Frankly I think that sounds like a ridiculously idealized version of fascism, fascist states absolutely catered to the dominant elites just like any other non-democratic system (or for that matter many if not most democratic systems).

Sure they could care about the interests of the state but so could any totalitarian ideology, it's not a particularly fascist quality.

Though I realize that we've drifted towards General Politics.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Sep 5th 2018 at 6:51:42 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang

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