TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253301: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:46:33 AM

••• I don't see how they're remotely the same.

1. Regulated Capitalism: You can't charge 200 dollars for a pill that someone needs to survive.

2. Socialism: You get free pills.

Public healthcare is still Capitalism. Unless you think the UK is Socialist.

The difference between Socialism and Capitalism is purely in who controls the means of production, the former is collective worker control and the latter is private control.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:46:48 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#253302: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:48:16 AM

yes, I think most of Europe is socialist.

Which is why it's not a bad thing and America's relationship with socialism is ridiculous.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#253303: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:49:28 AM

Free public healthcare mind you

[up][up]

Edited by Ultimatum on Aug 28th 2018 at 3:49:08 PM

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253304: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:49:54 AM

[up][up]Then you have a fundamentally flawed definition of socialism, the idea that the government doing something=socialism is a nonsensical definition that makes Bismark and Ancient Rome socialist.

If there isn't workers control of the means of production then it's not socialist by any actually rigorous definition of socialism.

[up]I don't follow?

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:52:17 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#253305: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:51:02 AM

... So, did Mexico get anything in their favor from the supposed renegotiation of the US-Mexican part of NAFTA? Hell, why did they even negotiate bilaterally? I though Mexico and Canada were adamant about the trilaterality of any renegotiation of NAFTA.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ultimatum Disasturbator from the Amiga Forest (Old as dirt) Relationship Status: Who needs love when you have waffles?
Disasturbator
#253306: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:51:21 AM

> Public healthcare is still Capitalism.

Right sorry,if it's free public healthcare is it still Capitalism?

have a listen and have a link to my discord server
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253307: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:52:19 AM

[up]Ah I see.

In that case yes it is, Capitalism is private people owning the means of production. If you still have that (as all European countries do) then it's capitalistic. Certain industries being state run is not mutually exclusive with capitalism.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:55:28 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#253308: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:56:03 AM

SOCIALISM

noun: socialism

a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 28th 2018 at 8:58:06 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#253309: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:57:43 AM

The main difference between Warren and Sanders/ Cortez is that the latter actually set themselves as in opposition to capitalism.

Despite that none of them really have proposed any policy that would make the US more socialist, as in putting the “means of production” under control of the workers, eliminating private (in the socialist sense anyway) property, etc.

If any of them have it’s buried under what is primarily Social Democratic reform and welfare state expansion, which is obviously a much easier sell.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253310: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:58:42 AM

[up][up]Thank you for proving my point, that does not describe European economies or public healthcare.

The nonsensical idea that "socialism is the government doing things" really needs to die. It's just propaganda used by the Republicans and other Neoliberals to oppose beneficial government action in the name of Cold War hysteria.

[up]Exactly this, the people who call themselves socialists are just anti-establishment populists who want to appear as anti-establishment as possible. They're Soc Dems cosplaying as socialists.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:59:05 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#253311: Aug 28th 2018 at 8:59:28 AM

The only country that has actually tried to be socialist in recent memory is Venezuela. Shit, it was even touted by prominent leftists as a model for other nations to become socialist back in the day.

Ask the Venezuelan posters what they think of socialism.

Edited by M84 on Aug 29th 2018 at 12:02:05 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253312: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:00:22 AM

[up]How soon is recent memory? Because the Marxist Leninists tried their own variation of State Socialism quite famously tongue

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:59:52 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#253313: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:01:39 AM

Hence the qualifier "recent".

Disgusted, but not surprised
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#253314: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:02:08 AM

[up][up][up]There is a pretty good argument to be made that Venezuela was never really Socialist since most of the economy was still held in private hands even now, but that’s neither here nor their since calling yourself socialist doesn’t make you incapable of poor governance.

Edited by Mio on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:01:50 PM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#253315: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:02:33 AM

The government owning and operating certain essential services is a socialist manner and frankly should exist under certain elements.

Mind you, the idea socialism and capitalism are inherently oppositional is an idea best left in the grave of the 19th century.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#253316: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:03:50 AM

Public health insurance does not a socialist country make.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253317: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:04:35 AM

[up][up]And once again the idea that socialism is simply the government doing something is not in any way accurate, it's the exact idea that allows reactionaries to claim that the fascists were totes socialists because they talked about or had state run industries.

Running an industry does not make a country any less capitalist.

I'm all for making capitalism more humane and decent, but guess what? That's still capitalism no matter what populists say.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:04:56 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#253318: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:07:33 AM

You are ignoring, again, that socialism and capitalism are not contradictory.

Which makes your entire argument weird.

As for Europe and socialism?

https://www.quora.com/Is-Europe-socialist

There are socialist elements to America already and we need to embrace and expand these. Roosevelt was a socialist present for example and far more radical than what we would get later.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 28th 2018 at 9:08:15 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253319: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:10:10 AM

Dude, your definition literally said the same thing.

Capitalism is not when the community owns the means of production, it's when the means of production are in private hands. Just because someone on Quora has a mistaken view of socialism has no bearing on this.

Ancient Egypt was a command economy, the state as directed by the Pharaoh decided economic activity. You can say that makes them socialist but if you do that would make "socialist" be a useless term with an incredibly diluted definition.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#253320: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:11:33 AM

It does seem like that is stretching the definition of socialism to the point of meaninglessness just to say "see, we did too have long-lasting socialist countries in the past!"

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253321: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:13:13 AM

Exactly, the idea that any government run activity is socialist has always been pushed by market liberals who didn't want the state to interfere with private economic decision making.

Playing their game is a fundamentally bad idea that dilutes terms for no real benefit.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#253322: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:14:25 AM

State capitalism can occure in a Socalist or Capitalist state, it comes down to who controls the state, if the state controlling the means of production then the owner of the state (either the people as a collective as in a democracy, or private individuals as in an authoritarian system) is the de facto controlor of the means of production.

Oh and I’d note that I pay for my medication in the UK (well England, Scotland is different) it’s a small flat fee (under £10) that covers the handling and dispensing by the pharmacy, it’s waved in certain cases (being low income being one of them).

Edited by Silasw on Aug 28th 2018 at 4:16:35 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#253323: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:18:27 AM

I think socialism is not a particularly radical or strange thing.

And that it is a fundamentally different thing from communism which is radical and completely society changing.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#253324: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:19:46 AM

I would say the workers owning the means of production is a radical thing in that it would be extremely different from current developed economies, but just because something is radical doesn't mean it's bad per-se.

Though I will point out that this discussion now fits the general politics thread far better.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:19:28 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CommanderAce Commander Thor from Planet Earth, United States Since: Oct, 2011 Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Commander Thor
#253325: Aug 28th 2018 at 9:36:18 AM

Quick questions: what’s the general view on Fidel Castro these days? I know his reputation as a dictator can be exaggerated in conservative circles, but I ask because I was confused why there was an abundance of rather gentle farewell remarks from Democrats and left-leaning people. In particular, I felt confused when I saw someone on Twitter that proclaims themselves to be a radical leftist rage tweeting over Mc Cain’s death, angry that he got an outpouring of grief and whitewashing while Castro didn’t.

Other question: how do people see The Young Turks around here and Jimmy Dore in particular? They proclaim to be left leaning but Dore being cuddly over Trump and conspiracy theorists, along with the group’s real love of Jill Stein and whitewashing Bernie Sanders makes me think otherwise. Also brought up because I saw the same Castro worship from them and rage over Mc Cain’s tributes.

Power of Thor!

Total posts: 417,856
Top