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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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Then you have a fundamentally flawed definition of socialism, the idea that the government doing something=socialism is a nonsensical definition that makes Bismark and Ancient Rome socialist.
If there isn't workers control of the means of production then it's not socialist by any actually rigorous definition of socialism.
I don't follow?
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:52:17 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang... So, did Mexico get anything in their favor from the supposed renegotiation of the US-Mexican part of NAFTA? Hell, why did they even negotiate bilaterally? I though Mexico and Canada were adamant about the trilaterality of any renegotiation of NAFTA.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Ah I see.
In that case yes it is, Capitalism is private people owning the means of production. If you still have that (as all European countries do) then it's capitalistic. Certain industries being state run is not mutually exclusive with capitalism.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:55:28 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangSOCIALISM
noun: socialism
a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 28th 2018 at 8:58:06 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.The main difference between Warren and Sanders/ Cortez is that the latter actually set themselves as in opposition to capitalism.
Despite that none of them really have proposed any policy that would make the US more socialist, as in putting the “means of production” under control of the workers, eliminating private (in the socialist sense anyway) property, etc.
If any of them have it’s buried under what is primarily Social Democratic reform and welfare state expansion, which is obviously a much easier sell.
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Thank you for proving my point, that does not describe European economies or public healthcare.
The nonsensical idea that "socialism is the government doing things" really needs to die. It's just propaganda used by the Republicans and other Neoliberals to oppose beneficial government action in the name of Cold War hysteria.
Exactly this, the people who call themselves socialists are just anti-establishment populists who want to appear as anti-establishment as possible. They're Soc Dems cosplaying as socialists.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:59:05 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangThe only country that has actually tried to be socialist in recent memory is Venezuela. Shit, it was even touted by prominent leftists as a model for other nations to become socialist back in the day.
Ask the Venezuelan posters what they think of socialism.
Edited by M84 on Aug 29th 2018 at 12:02:05 AM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
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There is a pretty good argument to be made that Venezuela was never really Socialist since most of the economy was still held in private hands even now, but that’s neither here nor their since calling yourself socialist doesn’t make you incapable of poor governance.
Edited by Mio on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:01:50 PM
The government owning and operating certain essential services is a socialist manner and frankly should exist under certain elements.
Mind you, the idea socialism and capitalism are inherently oppositional is an idea best left in the grave of the 19th century.
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.![]()
And once again the idea that socialism is simply the government doing something is not in any way accurate, it's the exact idea that allows reactionaries to claim that the fascists were totes socialists because they talked about or had state run industries.
Running an industry does not make a country any less capitalist.
I'm all for making capitalism more humane and decent, but guess what? That's still capitalism no matter what populists say.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:04:56 PM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangYou are ignoring, again, that socialism and capitalism are not contradictory.
Which makes your entire argument weird.
As for Europe and socialism?
https://www.quora.com/Is-Europe-socialist
There are socialist elements to America already and we need to embrace and expand these. Roosevelt was a socialist present for example and far more radical than what we would get later.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 28th 2018 at 9:08:15 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Dude, your definition literally said the same thing.
Capitalism is not when the community owns the means of production, it's when the means of production are in private hands. Just because someone on Quora has a mistaken view of socialism has no bearing on this.
Ancient Egypt was a command economy, the state as directed by the Pharaoh decided economic activity. You can say that makes them socialist but if you do that would make "socialist" be a useless term with an incredibly diluted definition.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangExactly, the idea that any government run activity is socialist has always been pushed by market liberals who didn't want the state to interfere with private economic decision making.
Playing their game is a fundamentally bad idea that dilutes terms for no real benefit.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangState capitalism can occure in a Socalist or Capitalist state, it comes down to who controls the state, if the state controlling the means of production then the owner of the state (either the people as a collective as in a democracy, or private individuals as in an authoritarian system) is the de facto controlor of the means of production.
Oh and I’d note that I pay for my medication in the UK (well England, Scotland is different) it’s a small flat fee (under £10) that covers the handling and dispensing by the pharmacy, it’s waved in certain cases (being low income being one of them).
Edited by Silasw on Aug 28th 2018 at 4:16:35 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ CyranI would say the workers owning the means of production is a radical thing in that it would be extremely different from current developed economies, but just because something is radical doesn't mean it's bad per-se.
Though I will point out that this discussion now fits the general politics thread far better.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 12:19:28 PM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji YangQuick questions: what’s the general view on Fidel Castro these days? I know his reputation as a dictator can be exaggerated in conservative circles, but I ask because I was confused why there was an abundance of rather gentle farewell remarks from Democrats and left-leaning people. In particular, I felt confused when I saw someone on Twitter that proclaims themselves to be a radical leftist rage tweeting over Mc Cain’s death, angry that he got an outpouring of grief and whitewashing while Castro didn’t.
Other question: how do people see The Young Turks around here and Jimmy Dore in particular? They proclaim to be left leaning but Dore being cuddly over Trump and conspiracy theorists, along with the group’s real love of Jill Stein and whitewashing Bernie Sanders makes me think otherwise. Also brought up because I saw the same Castro worship from them and rage over Mc Cain’s tributes.
Power of Thor!

1. Regulated Capitalism: You can't charge 200 dollars for a pill that someone needs to survive.
2. Socialism: You get free pills.
Public healthcare is still Capitalism. Unless you think the UK is Socialist.
The difference between Socialism and Capitalism is purely in who controls the means of production, the former is collective worker control and the latter is private control.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 28th 2018 at 11:46:48 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang