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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
One of the Washington reporters (Daniel Dale) has been reporting from the Canadian perspective because he's the Washington correspondent for the Toronto Star. He was tweeting his experience
of the NAFTA event this morning live. He found the experience bizarre, contradictory and confusing, and his updates throughout the day show the developments are getting more confusing and bizarre as the day wears on.
He has also got hold of the transcripts for Trump's remarks about Canada:
Because of the length of the thread, I've split it into sections. The first one is as the event was unfolding and the other two folders are updates as the day wore on.
Basically, what keeps happening is that Trump says things about making two separate two-country deals with Canada and with Mexico, then his administration just keeps working on the three-country NAFTA. His rhetoric has often had almost no connection to the actual negotiations.
Trump quote: "They used to call it NAFTA. We're going to call it the United States-Mexico Trade Agreement...we'll get rid of the name NAFTA...it has a bad connotation."
In another unusual scene, Trump patched through Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto by speakerphone. After congratulating EPN, he sat at his desk looking around and looking down in silence as EPN spoke to him through a translator.
EPN emphasized to Trump that Canada should quickly rejoin the talks.
Trump to EPN: "I have a lot of good meetings that people weren't sure if they were good..."
Trump, nonsensically: "As far as Canada's concerned, we haven't started with Canada yet. We wanted to do Mexico." They've been negotiating with Canada for a year...
Trump: "Canada will start negotiations shortly. I'll be calling the prime minister very soon...and if they'd like to negotiate fairly, we'll do that." He complains about Canadian dairy tariffs.
Trump threatens Canada: "The easiest thing we can do is tariff their cars coming in...it's a very simple negotiation, it could end in one day."
Trump repeats that he considers this "the U.S.-Mexico Trade Agreement." He adds: "We'll see whether we'll decide to put up Canada...or just make a separate deal with Canada...the simplest deal is already made."
Again, his administration is just working on a three-country NAFTA.
Trump is providing no details whatsoever. "It's an incredible deal," he says.
Trump claims that the Mexican government has promised him to immediately start purchasing "as much farm product as they can." No idea what he's talking about
After Trump threatens Canada and says he might want to exclude Canada from the final deal, EPN says again that Mexico wants Canada to rejoin the negotiations fast, wants a three-country deal.
It's just so bizarre - the president is issuing dramatic threats against Canada and saying he might not want a three-country NAFTA anymore while his NAFTA negotiators are scrambling to try to make a three-country NAFTA deal in the next week or so.
"This is one of the largest trade deals ever made, maybe the largest trade deal ever made," Trump says of something that is not a trade deal and would not be the largest trade deal ever made even if it were a trade deal.
I expected Trump to oversell and mis-sell what has happened, but he has exceeded my expectations.
Trump says negotiatons with Canada will be "smaller," because Mexico is a much larger trading partner. U.S. trade with Canada was more than $50 billion larger than U.S. trade with Mexico last year.
Well, that event is over.
This is unusual. Asked if Mexico has actually *agreed* to be part of a bilateral deal without Canada - agreed to be part of the deal the Trump team says it's submitting to Congress! - a senior administration official would not respond directly.
In summary, the Trump administration is trying to squeeze Canada by saying "the train is leaving the station with Mexico, get on board or don't" - even though it's not clear Mexico has agreed to have the train leave the station without Canada. I'm not sure of the legalities here. Other news: Senior administration official says they've agreed on an "alternative" to the auto-termination "sunset" clause, which Trudeau has called a dealbreaker. Not yet clear what Canada thinks of the alternative.
Per senior admin official, this is the proposed US alternative to the sunset clause: the new agreement would have a 16-year term, rather than an indefinite term like the current NAFTA. Every six years, the parties would do a review and could decide to renew another 16 years. 1/2
If one of the parties decided, at the 6-year mark, not to renew for another 16 years, they'd meet every year to try to resolve whatever the issue was that was preventing renewal.
Asked what they'll call this deal if not NAFTA if Canada joins, there was a pause, and then a senior administration official said they'll figure something out.
Adios to the former Mexico-Canada unity:
It's not yet clear to me how much Trudeau govt knew about what was going on with the US and Mexico. Officials had said they were happy those two were resolving their issues, since that's necessary for NAFTA. Now US and Mexico are saying "join us or we're going off without you."
Because the final tweet ultimately links to a WSJ article, I'll quote as much as I can just in case of paywall issues:
WASHINGTON—The Mexican government agreed to Trump administration demands to weaken key provisions of the North American Free Trade Agreement that allow business and government to challenge other member countries over trade policies.
The changes will make it harder for Canada to join the deal hammered out between the U.S. and Mexico and announced on Monday. It will also draw opposition from big American business groups whose support has generally been vital for trade deals to win U.S. Congressional support.
U.S. Trade Rep. Robert Lighthizer said, in a briefing Monday with reporters, that the two countries had agreed to drop a portion of the 24-year-old pact that gives participating countries the right to challenge penalties imposed by the other nations to combat alleged “dumping” or subsidies.
The three countries would still be able to challenge such trade cases at the World Trade Organization in Geneva. But that process is seen as much slower and more cumbersome than resorting to the panels that have been created specially just for the three Nafta members.
The upshot is that is will be easier for member countries to challenge each other over allegations of dumping, or selling goods at artificially low prices to grab market share. Canada has said that preserving that provision—known as Chapter 19 in the current Nafta—is important for its continued support of any rewrite of Nafta. The Trump administration has ramped up use of such penalties against Canadian exports over the past year.
“That provision will not exist” if the U.S.-Mexico pact is ratified, Mr. Lightzhizer said.
Mr. Lighthizer also said that the two sides had agreed to soften the Investor-State Dispute Settlement chapter in Nafta, a provision designed to give multinationals the right to challenge government decisions in special arbitration panels. Corporations say such provisions make it easier to invest in foreign countries. The Trump administrations has sought to discourage American investment abroad.
Mr. Lighthzier said the existing protections would remain for “certain sectors where there’s contact with the government,” such as oil and gas, infrastructure and telecommunications.
Other industries would have more limited recourse to ISDS provisions, making it harder for them to use the measures to challenge government regulation as they currently often do. Big U.S. business groups—backed by Republican leaders in Congress—have warned that weakening ISDS could prompt them to lobby against the new pact.
While the Trump administration appears to have succeeded in getting Mexico to sign on to its proposals to weaken the enforcement provisions of the pact, U.S. officials in return compromised by significantly watering down their demands for a “sunset” provision that would have made the agreement expire automatically after a few years unless each of the countries took the active step of renewing it.
Instead of an automatic expiration date, Mr. Lighthizer said the countries would review Nafta every six years. He also said “the agreement will be for a period of 16 years,” and that after each six-year review, it would be extended for another 16 years. Mr. Lighthizer didn’t say what would happen if either side fails to sign off on the review.
Mr. Lighthizer acknowledged that much of the detail—including new auto rules—was complex, joking “if you’re not confused, you’re just not paying attention.”
Mr. Lighthizer said talks with Canada would now begin immediately with the aim of completing a three-way deal including Ottawa “by the end of the week.”
He didn’t elaborate on how firm that deadline was, and whether the failure to reach a deal with by then would prompt the U.S. to try and move forward without Canada.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 27th 2018 at 10:15:28 AM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.On the topic of gun control, I think there's an alarming link between failure to pass gun control and millennial dislike towards democracy, especially given the failure of the gun control movement to turn millennials out for the 2014 midterms.
Indeed, it's entirely possible that the pattern will repeat this year, in part because recent polls show Rick Scott handily beating Bill Nelson as FL Senator and the fact that only 2% of the American public sees gun control as the most important issue facing America right now
.
Yes, the issue that will have massive long-term implications for the millennial generation, more than any economic issue, is somehow less important to the public than unemployment.
No wonder the youth are supportive of authoritarian rule.
Edited by Mario1995 on Aug 27th 2018 at 6:41:29 AM
"The devil's got all the good gear. What's God got? The Inspiral Carpets and nuns. Fuck that." - Liam GallagherI’ll take a source on younge people being supportive of authoritarianism.
Also it’s hard to turn victims of gun violence out to vote, seeing as very often they’re still to younge to vote until years after the fact.
A concentrated campaign to have children canvas their parents and grandparents might work, but who knows.
Edited by Silasw on Aug 27th 2018 at 10:50:53 AM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran![]()
That assumes those parents and grandparents care more about gun violence then scary black men and "rapist Hispanics" living next door in their neighborhood. Unfortunately, many who support gun control end up voting Republican anyway because gun control isn't at the top of their priority list.
And here's the source you're searching for
.
I don't see how 2% of Americans not seeing gun control as the most important issue is something especially bad, I know that I don't.
Economic inequality and healthcare are far more important than gun control.
Furthermore I'm going to second the desire for a source, even if millennials are supportive of authoritarianism I don't see any reason to particularly link it with a failure of gun control. It's not like there aren't quite a few other issues to cause dislike for our current system.
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Elizabeth Bruenig of WaPost seems to see a link
.
Edited by Mario1995 on Aug 27th 2018 at 7:00:59 AM
"The devil's got all the good gear. What's God got? The Inspiral Carpets and nuns. Fuck that." - Liam Gallagher
I hope you actually read that article, because it doesn't draw a link between opposing gun control and supporting authoritarianism.
I mentioned it above, but the marketing the gun industry has used has worked amazingly well on young people. See the popularity of military-style and "tactical" gear and clothing (go to any high school and you'll see plenty of kids with backpacks covered in MOLLE grids), the glamorization of firearms on social media, AR-15s styled up like hot rods...all that stuff has worked great.
Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 27th 2018 at 4:05:37 AM
They should have sent a poet.Yeah, it merely posited that the failure to change gun control is simply the symptom of our system's dysfunctions that cause people to lose trust in democracy. Not that the lack of gun control itself makes people care about democracy less.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 27th 2018 at 7:06:31 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
x5
There are two problems with the article you've linked to. While it's linking to research published the previous July, the remit for the research wasn't due to be published until the following January. It contradicts itself in attempting to summarise the study's findings, beginning with the claim that millennials are more likely to support authoritarianism and ending with the message that they're being less engaged in any kind of politics (both conventional and unconventional).
The second problem occurs in the very final paragraph, where it states that millennials voted overwhelmingly for Clinton, but that the problem was that not enough Democratic-leaning millennials voted. When you follow the link to the source for this final paragraph, it's to discover that what the source is actually saying is that Democrat-leaning millennials did vote, but many voted for Gary Johnson or Jill Stein instead of Clinton.
That's very different to claiming they didn't vote. So, if the final paragraph is demonstrably inaccurate in reporting what its source actually said, that raises questions about the accuracy of the rest of the article (and that's ignoring the fact the contradictory nature of rest of the article should raise the same question about accuracy of reporting).
Overall, the article comes across as either not understanding the research it's commenting on or not knowing what message to pull from the research it's commenting on. I notice that it had to acknowledge at the end at least one correction based on a misleading graph, so there clearly have been problems with its coverage.
I had a look at the July publication and its wrap-up raises some interesting questions about the deconsolidating of stable democracies, but I can't help noticing that all the warning factors it's flagging in Western Europe and the US have been driven by the Baby Boomer generation and not by Millennials. Then again, its conclusion doesn't discuss Millennials (or any generation at all).
Indeed, where it does discuss the Millennials, it's not in the manner the news article you link to suggests. The study outright states that effect seems to be related more to 'cohorts' not 'age categories'. It also suggests that part of the decline in support for democracy appears to be because younger generations are more willing than older generations to critically appraise the government structures they have. Again, that's a very different idea to anything the news article decides to focus on.
The July study also points out there's a definitional problem with the time series. It wasn't until 2005 that definitions of democracy was provided when data collecting, so it's hard to know what kind of impact people's perception of the definition of democracy may have had prior to, and after, the inclusion of definitions. It also points out where it's having to use proxies because of this problem. There's a caveat to this report where it states that future surveys are necessary to confirm these data, which should therefore be viewed as 'preliminary' until then.
None of which that news article addressed or even hinted at.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 27th 2018 at 12:37:24 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.![]()
When Millennials lose trust in democracy when it fails to respond to these tragedies, then ultimately they become more vulnerable to authoritarian ideals.
One simply has to look at Europe's young to see this loss of trust in democracy in real time.
Edited by Mario1995 on Aug 27th 2018 at 7:34:52 AM
"The devil's got all the good gear. What's God got? The Inspiral Carpets and nuns. Fuck that." - Liam GallagherI admit to being definitely on the, "Hillary Clinton ran a flawed campaign and was not the greatest candidate" versus "the public was misinformed, selfish, and wrong about her." Despite this, I don't think the issue was on the Left at all. I think they did, by and large, vote for her en masse.
There was just a lack of enthusiasm about her from many of her voters.
None of which mattered as long as they voted.
It's just Trump won in slightly more states due to legal technicality and enthusiasm from well-off whites.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 27th 2018 at 4:46:15 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.I mean both of those things can be true.
Hillary Clinton made some mistakes. It also happens that much of the unease around her was unfounded and/or because many people couldn't be bothered to do proper research (and also sexism, but shouldn't that go without saying).
Edited by LSBK on Aug 27th 2018 at 6:44:45 AM
"the public was misinformed, selfish, and wrong about her."
But the public was misinformed, selfish, and wrong about her. Were you asleep during all of 2016? I envy that, my man.
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."My thoughts
- I was ambivalent about Hillary Clinton
- I still am
- I still voted for Hillary Clinton
- I think most left leaning people DID vote for Hillary
- I think Trump won due to a technicality
- I think Trump won on a older affluent white conservative vote
- I think finger pointing is useless because of these facts because the millennial base, while unenthusiastic, still voted for Hillary.
Not the people who were voting for anything other than white supremacy. Crooked Hillary is really an after-the-fact justification for the fact they were voting for Trump on the basis of racism.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 27th 2018 at 4:49:20 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.You know, I've been reading that research paper Mario linked to (not the news article, but the actual paper
(pdf)), and where it gets to the subject of why the younger generations appear to be less engaged than older generations were at the same age (an important way of wording it because the study is talking in cohorts, which the news article doesn't seem to understand), it mentions this:
So this study is much more complicated than claiming the Millennials becoming more authoritarian. And, frankly, this study is terribly prone to speculating possible reasons and cooking up assumptions for data that it admits needs further study to corroborate. Here's its concluding paragraph to the 'Rising Support for Authoritarian Alternatives' section:
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 27th 2018 at 1:28:44 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.GOP senator: McCain is 'partially to blame' for controversy over White House flags
For context, the controversy is the White House for raising then re-lowering the flags for Mc Cain's death.
Edited by LSBK on Aug 27th 2018 at 7:36:46 AM
That doesn't surprise me. You should have seen the comments on Trump's twitter feed earlier today. Trump supporters have been running rings around logic to try and come up with reasons for why everyone must be pro-military and pro-vets but it's okay for Trump to treat McCain like crap.
The most common reasons I saw were that McCain was a traitor because he was captured and that McCain never respected Trump so it's a kindness that Trump did it for the federal minimum and it's therefore entirely McCain's fault that he's not getting any more recognition.
So, it looks like the politicians have probably been monitoring the responses by Trump supporters and are going to parrot them to curry votes.
The flag was returned to half-mast earlier today and Trump finally issued a formal statement.
Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 27th 2018 at 1:44:33 PM
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2018/08/27/day-585/
Day 585: A cutthroat death match.
1/ The U.S. and Mexico reached an agreement to end the North American Free Trade Agreement and replace it with the United States-Mexico Trade Agreement. Trump called the new name for the trade deal "elegant," because the NAFTA name had "a bad connotation" and a job-killing "disaster" for the U.S. The preliminary agreement excludes Canada, as Trump has repeatedly criticized the country's trade practices. Canadian leaders have insisted they will not sign a deal that does not work in their favor. The preliminary deal will last for 16 years and be reviewed every six years. (New York Times / Reuters / Associated Press / CNBC)
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-trade-nafta/exclusive-u-s-mexico-reach-nafta-deal-talks-with-canada-to-start-immediately-idUSKCN1LC1E7
2/ A former doorman at Trump World Tower is now free to discuss "information regarding Donald Trump's illegitimate child" he fathered with an ex-housekeeper in the late 1980s. Dino Sajudin entered into a "source agreement" with American Media Inc., which publishes the National Enquirer, on Nov. 15, 2015, but he was "recently" released from the contract, according to his attorney. In April, Sajudin said he had previously been "instructed not to criticize President Trump's former housekeeper due to a prior relationship she had with President Trump which produced a child." At the time, AMI called Sajudin's story "not credible." (CNN / New Yorker / Source PDF
)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/24/politics/trump-tower-doorman-contract-ami/index.html
3/ Trump refused to approve a White House statement honoring John Mc Cain's military service, which call Mc Cain a "hero." Sarah Huckabee Sanders, John Kelly, and other White House staffers advocated for a statement lauding Mc Cain's career, but Trump told them he wanted to tweet instead. Shortly after Mc Cain's death was announced, Trump tweeted: "My deepest sympathies and respect go out to the family of Senator John Mc Cain. Our hearts and prayers are with you!" Trump is not invited to the late senator's funeral. (Washington Post)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-rejected-plans-for-a-white-house-statement-praising-mccain/2018/08/26/0d0478e4-a967-11e8-8f4b-aee063e14538_story.html?utm_term=.fcbaee81b9cf
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/obituaries/john-mccain-maverick-of-the-senate-and-former-pow-dies-at-81/2018/08/25/d9219b7e-a7b8-11e8-97ce-cc9042272f07_story.html
4/ A federal judge struck down most of Trump's executive orders limiting the power of federal employee unions. In May, Trump signed three executive orders which made it easier for managers to fire under-performing federal employees and limited the issues that could be bargained over in union negotiations. In her decision, the judge wrote that the President cannot "eviscerate the right to bargain collectively as envisioned" in the federal labor-management relations statute. She added: "the collective bargaining process is not a cutthroat death match." (Politico / Washington Post / New York Times)
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/25/trump-federal-workforce-executive-orders-struck-down-796150
5/ Trump added a blue stripe to the American flag during a flag-coloring session at a children's hospital in Ohio. The stripes on the U.S. flag are red and white; the blue is the background to flag's stars. (The Independent / Yahoo News)
https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/photo-donald-trump-coloring-american-flag-wrong-going-viral-183549669.html
poll/ Trump's approval rating stands at 44% with 52% of Americans disapproving. The research firm that conducted the survey called Trump's approval rating "remarkably stable" despite Paul Manafort's conviction and Michael Cohen now cooperating with federal prosecutors after his guilty plea. (NBC News)
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/first-read/nbc-wsj-poll-trump-approval-remarkably-stable-after-stormy-week-n903626
poll/ 60% of voters think it would be inappropriate for Trump to pardon Paul Manafort. 11% say a pardon would be appropriate. (Politico)
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/24/poll-manafort-pardon-politico-morning-consult-795699
https://www.politico.com/story/2018/08/24/trump-manafort-pardon-white-house-aides-795712
poll/ Ted Cruz leads Beto O’Rourke by one percentage point in their Texas Senate race. Cruz leads O'Rourke 38 to 37%. (The Hill)
http://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/403786-poll-cruz-leads-orourke-by-one-point-in-texas-senate-race
Notables.
https://apnews.com/5fa24ab9eafb456089fb9ff1a22ec694
Gun control, teacher and civil rights groups are threatening to sue the Department of Education if it moves forward with its proposal to allow states to spend federal funds on guns for school personnel. (NBC News)
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/politics-news/gun-control-teacher-groups-threaten-legal-action-against-devos-over-n903676
The Democratic National Convention voted to limit the influence of "superdelegates" at the party's convention ahead of the 2020 presidential primaries. (CNN)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/25/politics/democrats-superdelegates-voting-changes/index.html
A government watchdog group has found a discrepancy between Trump's financial disclosures and the payments he made to Michael Cohen. Trump's financial disclosure form states that he "fully reimbursed" Cohen between $100,001 and $250,000 in 2017, but court documents filed by federal prosecutors state that Cohen received $420,000 from the Trump Organization over the course of that year. "It is quite notable," said Scott Amey, general counsel of the nonpartisan Project on Government Oversight. "This may constitute a false statement by the president. If they were paying him $420 [thousand] they should have put the whole amount in there." (CNBC)
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/08/24/trump-paid-michael-cohen-more-than-what-he-stated-in-financial-disclosure.html
A House Intelligence Committee member wants Trump Jr. to testify again in light of Trump being implicated by Michael Cohen in a hush money scheme. (CNN)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/27/politics/mike-quigley-axe-files/index.html
Stormy Daniels says she would "happily" testify before Congress about the $130,000 hush money payment she received from Trump in 2016 via Michael Cohen. "If Donald Trump has done things he shouldn't have during his campaign, he should be impeached," Daniels told the Daily Mirror. She added: "I'll happily testify under oath and prove my story is true." (The Hill / Daily Mirror)
http://thehill.com/homenews/administration/403709-stormy-daniels-says-she-will-testify-before-congress
Trump met with a Q Anon conspiracy theorist in the Oval Office last week, according to photos posted on the man's Twitter account. Michael Lebron, known as Lionel in online circles, is described on his own websites as "an avowed conspiracy analyst." Photos posted to Lionel's Twitter account show him with Trump in the Oval Office and touring the White House. "There are simply no words to explicate the profound and ineffable honor of meeting @realDonaldTrump in the tabernacle of liberty, the Oval Office," Lionel tweeted. "@Lynn Shaw Prod and I so appreciate @POTUS' kindness and courtesy. #MAGA." (CNN / Daily Beast / GQ)
https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/25/politics/donald-trump-qanon-white-house/index.html
Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 27th 2018 at 1:45:45 PM