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Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#252526: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:29:11 PM

[up][up]Most democracies have more than two viable parties and therefore any government will always be a coalition government made up of multiple parties. (This is why I laugh so hard I cry... Or is it the other way around?... Every time a US news source loudly and proudly proclaims a European Far Right party was 'defeated' when they didn't get the most votes... Even when they got the second or third most.)

With such a range of options, party loyalists are a lot less common and, in some cases, don't make up the majority of voters even when all put together.

Edited by Robrecht on Aug 18th 2018 at 4:31:13 AM

Angry gets shit done.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252527: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:29:35 PM

Bill Maher once again proves himself to be a useful idiot for the right.

He's not being a useful idiot, arguments against free speech for hateful bigots cover him and thus it's clearly in his personal and ideological interest to defend Jones and anyone else who's even slightly curtailed over being a douchebag.

Note that I'm not defending him, he's a terrible person and this is simply another expression of that. But his defense is not him being a useful idiot.

Most democracies have more than two viable parties and therefore any government will always be a coalition government made up of multiple parties. (This is why I laugh so hard I cry... Or is it the other way around?... Every time a US news source loudly and proudly proclaims a European Far Right party was 'defeated' when they didn't get the most votes... Even when they got the second or third most.)

With such a range of options, party loyalists are a lot less common and, in some cases, don't make up the majority of voters even when all put together.

While I'm well aware of the existence of proportional representation this is an excellent point that I hadn't thought of, consider me convinced.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 18th 2018 at 7:30:28 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252528: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:34:06 PM

Bill...those are private corporations.

I can't believe I'm pointing this out but nothing says Facebook and Twitter have to let Alex Jones racist rant in their place anymore than the Hilton corporation should allow the Klan to rant in their lobbies.

It's not a public forum.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2018 at 4:41:59 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252529: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:35:28 PM

[up]Of course, but it makes much more sense when you consider his clear racism. He's got every reason to fear the shifting of public tolerance regarding dogwhistled (and not so dogwhistled) racism.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#252530: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:37:32 PM

Spartan, just for clarity's sake, what do you think the term 'useful idiot' refers to?

Angry gets shit done.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252531: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:42:16 PM

The Republicans don't have a monopoly on racism.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#252532: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:43:20 PM

Note that I'm not defending him, he's a terrible person and this is simply another expression of that. But his defense is not him being a useful idiot.

Gonna have to echo Robrecht here. What even is your definition of "useful idiot" if Maher is clearly expressing his views as a terrible person that align with the right?

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252533: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:46:18 PM

Useful idiot is an apocryphal (read: false) story about Lenin talking about people who supported communism in their home countries against their best interests, often having wildly distorted views of what would happen should achieve power. In actuality, it applied to Lenin himself at least in the context that he was an agent provocateur of the German government who sent him (back) to Russia in hopes of undermining the Czar....and man did that backfire.

Bill being called one is a tad ridiculous as he's a secular disdainful comedian who is mostly to the Left. It just so happens that he is in addition to being disdainful of religion in general (and Islam in particular) also a man with a vested interest in protecting the demagogues of media that have unrestricted access to say whatever they want.

A crackdown on social media could impact his bottom line.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2018 at 4:46:02 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252534: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:47:48 PM

I think what Spartan is saying is that being a terrible person who acts in your own self interest is different from being a useful idiot who is oblivious to what you are doing.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#252535: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:04:50 PM

Usefull idiots are aslo people who while being in "your side" sometimes end helping the other for some reason or another.

In this case, I can get with the idea of censuring jones as case of "dealing with stuff that we dont like" when in fact, Jones alreeady broke with the limit of good behivor.

In general, Maher is coming more and more as relic of past age in the 2000-10, back when people defend the right to said stuff that could be seen ofensive because otherweise it shut down all other avenue of conversation.

Boy, how things change overnight.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#252536: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:05:55 PM

There are a few on the left which misread the Alex Jones situation completely.

1. The notion that it is a free speech issue - it truly isn't, because his free speech isn't blocked by the government itself. He has the freedom to say whatever he wants, those platforms have the freedom to say "yeah, we don't want this on our platform".

2. A slightly better argument is the notion that due to those platforms being so big, it would set a bad example if they can basically control the public discourse at will. That is actually something worth discussing, but not in Alex Jones case. Because:

1. He violated the terms of use for those platforms, repeatedly, and those are the same for everyone, so excluding him is not a random act.

2. He broke US law by using said platforms to libel other people again and again and again. That actually puts those platforms themselves in legal jeopardy. And, I said it before but it bears repeating, the internet should not be a lawless zone. It should be the responsibility of those platforms to make a reasonable effort to keep the content featured on them within the law.

3. His content wasn't just limited to the US, since we are talking about international platforms, his content broke the hate speech laws of multiple countries. Which is, btw, another level in all of this, how to police the internet if it is accessible from everywhere but each countries has different rules for what is illegal and what isn't. Did you know that Facebook has a specific software it runs specifically for countries in which Holocaust denial is illegal?

Sadly a lot on the left maybe consider point 1 but overlook the arguments against point 2.

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#252537: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:21:31 PM

And ironically, none of the right-wing nutjobs would accept the solution to their problem: nationalize the social media industry.

Imca (Veteran)
#252538: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:24:22 PM

I don't think you need to nationalize the whole industry, just let a national platform exist alongside the others.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252539: Aug 18th 2018 at 5:30:36 PM

I think what Spartan is saying is that being a terrible person who acts in your own self interest is different from being a useful idiot who is oblivious to what you are doing.

Exactly this, a useful idiot is someone who is unintentionally serving as the pawn of some other interest.

A classic example of that would be a leftist who has earnest criticisms of capitalism and because of that serves as a patsy to the Soviet Union.

Maher is not being tricked or is otherwise being manipulated, as a bigot he has every reason to want to defend Jones. Given that he could very well be next.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Imca (Veteran)
#252540: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:06:59 PM

I keep seeing people say he is a bigot, but today is the first I have heard of him.

What is his history?

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252541: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:18:55 PM

Bill Maher is a famous Comedy Central Talk Show host who has a history of getting famous actors, politicians, and figures to show up on his program. Like John Stewart, Trevor Noah, Samantha Bea, and others—a lot of Leftists and many Centrists watch his show for the entertainment value but also his editorializing on current events.

Maher lost a good deal of credibility due to a anti-religion documentary he did followed by his vocal support of the War on Terror. His basic argument being Muslim countries are all dictatorships and hellholes because they're Muslim and that we let them get away with it because we don't want to seem racist/bigoted. Which is...incredibly stupid. Ben Affleck, of all people, got into many heated arguments with the guy defending Islam.

He's also been prone to being more about insulting the Republicans and other enemies than actually advocating any reform policies. Quite a few Democrats accusing him of being apathetic to the plight of the poor in America.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2018 at 6:21:37 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252542: Aug 18th 2018 at 6:32:18 PM

Gonna agree with Spartan here. Maher is not being a useful idiot here. He is defending a bigot because he is also one and he does not want to be shut down in a similar way.

Shit sticks together.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#252543: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:00:05 PM

I wasn't aware that Indonesia is a dictatorship...granted, it isn't perfectly democratic and there are issues, but it is a republic and actually has elected leaders. It also happens to be Muslime country. A very populated one.

Imca (Veteran)
#252544: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:05:02 PM

People weren't defending Maher, I asked what he did, Philips explained.

Thanksies Philips.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252545: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:06:35 PM

Nobody here said Charles was defending Maher.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252546: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:14:16 PM

Yes, Maher is a grossly ignorant bigot.

If such isn't the Department of Redundancy statement.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2018 at 7:13:51 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#252547: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:05:02 PM

[up]It isn't. There are bigots who actually know what they're talking about when they're not slanting it for their audience. They're dangerous.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#252548: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:09:40 PM

Hell on his latest show he basically defended Trump voters, by saying that they voted for Trump because things had become so PC that they wanted someone who was open about who they are instead of putting foward a fake persona. He then went on to say that after getting annoyed about fake persona’s from politicians people have embraced them for themselves, hiding their inner bad person and putting foward a perfect face online.

Maher can’t wrap his head around the idea that some of us aren’t putting on a front, that some of us are just decent people at our core and not rotten like him.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 18th 2018 at 5:09:54 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#252549: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:45:11 PM

Hell, Maher once voiced support for a teacher bullying a Muslim student over what turned out to be a clock. The teacher had claimed it was a bomb. The kid eventually left that school, and I think the family eventually moved back to Lebanon, though I have no proof there so I'm probably wrong. There's also his documentary called Religiosity wherein he interviewed a guy who tried to equate the cult of Mithra (an obscure Roman mystery cult) with the growing Christian cult of the same time. Which, in the video I watched was debunked mostly because one; archeologists actually have very little information about the cult because very little has survived to today, and two, the claims equating the two come from two nineteenth century writers who gave no sources for their claims and thus appeared to be making it up wholesale, basing it on the fact that there were twelve Apostles and that Mithra is shown with twelve animals (and it's the Western Zodiac animals, to be specific.)

You'd think a guy interested in the truth would have bothered to research that far. But no, he's not near as interested in truth as he is in taking potshots at things he hates.

So yeah, he's not as notorious as Alex Jones but he has in fact done his share of damage. It just gets ignored because he's nominally on the correct side.

TVRulezAgain Since: Sep, 2011
#252550: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:49:45 PM

I lost any respect for Bill Maher when he brought Milo Yamalamadingdong on his show.


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