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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252501: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:46:00 AM

[up]Oh absolutely.

It would be foolish to ignore the influence of the military-industrial complex, my point was more about the general impulse amongst left-wing populists to use it as a sole or primary reason for it.

Which I firmly believe is too reductionist.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 18th 2018 at 10:48:19 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#252502: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:47:10 AM

[up][up][up] Something I’ve seen postulated is that our innate tendency towards finding patterns is what brings about these theories. We have a need for everything to work in a way that makes sense, which world events rarely do. On top of that, we love patterns and are biologically predisposed to finding them. When confronted with something that’s just happening for an impossibly complex confluence of events our brain just picks a pattern that makes sense to us out of it, which is how we get conspiracy theories.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 18th 2018 at 7:52:53 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252503: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:50:06 AM

[up]That's almost certainly the reason.

Pattern finding behavior is supremely useful in avoiding predators and increasing the odds of breeding, thus we're really good at it.

Conspiracy theories are simply that pattern matching behavior taken to overdrive with the desire for some kind of control, hence why a random madman surely cannot kill the President or our leaders surely cannot cause horrible damage because they're ignorant and narrow-minded.

Malevolent order is always less terrifying then aimless chaos.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252504: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:51:13 AM

Not helping things is that sometimes there are genuine conspiracies out there. Case in point: the increasing evidence that the Kremlin did attempt to influence the 2016 election and is still trying to interfere in the USA electoral process.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252505: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:52:32 AM

[up]Quite right, the problem with conspiracy theories is not that they postulate that conspiracies exist but rather that they give them unbelievable power and unity.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 18th 2018 at 10:52:12 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252506: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:54:21 AM

Personally, I think that the MIC's involvement in the War on Terror is less a bunch of shadowy businessmen plotting the whole thing and more a bunch of greedy asshats pressuring Congress via campaign funding to keep the thing going.

Disgusted, but not surprised
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#252507: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:55:00 AM

[nja]As far as the War on Terror, while the role of the MIC in starting the whole thing is questionable it’s undeniable that they’ve played a role in keeping the whole thing going.

[up]x4 Order is a big one. We have a psychological need for things to be well-ordered, and like I mentioned they rarely are.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 18th 2018 at 7:56:13 AM

They should have sent a poet.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252508: Aug 18th 2018 at 7:56:51 AM

In my mind, a bunch of people in the MIC realized they were making a lot of money because of the War on Terror and thought "Damn we need to keep this gravy train running!"

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252509: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:03:42 AM

Order is a big one. We have a psychological need for things to be well-ordered, and like I mentioned they rarely are.

Quite, which is why people can and have easily tolerated authoritarianism. As long as it provides some semblance of Order then for a great deal of people it is better then Chaos.

But I think we're beginning to veer away from US politics tongue

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#252510: Aug 18th 2018 at 8:06:44 AM

[up][up] It’s not even anything that specific. There’s no stated motivation, it’s just corporate inertia.

[up] True.

They should have sent a poet.
Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#252511: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:18:50 AM

It's probably a good idea to keep in mind that the way that the MIC is keeping the War on Terror going isn't by directly giving politicians (campaign) money and telling them 'Hey, this war is profitable, keep it up.'

Instead what they do is give money to political pressure groups with a variety of views that support keeping the War on Terror going regardless of whether that's out of xenophobia, imperialism or more lofty ideals.

Angry gets shit done.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#252512: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:23:33 AM

@fruitpork: Gun violence is a major problem exclusive to the United States, compared to other developed and some undeveloped nations. The rest of generation Z, like me, will still see terrorism as the biggest global threat, after the attacks in Paris, London, Bangkok, etc.

Life is unfair...
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252513: Aug 18th 2018 at 10:37:54 AM

Re: The War on Terror

No supporter of the War on Terror be I but it's kind of hard to declare a war over when people are still fighting you. When Obama was planning to negotiate with the Taliban, there were people on here who considered that a monstrous idea even though a war requires you to negotiate with someone to end it.

ISIS really is THAT bad, though I'd argue we didn't do enough there and it's defeat will be at the hands of the Iraqi and Syrian people. Who do we stop fighting exactly and how?

The War on Terror began basically because of a legitimate (as such things go) attempt to deal with the aftermath of a partisan group sponsored by the Afghanistan government (not recognized by the USA) and could have/should have begun/ended there. It's exaggeration into a global worldwide conflict is less the result of the MIC than racism and a dramatic overreaction by the American people/Bush administration, IMHO. A challenge had been made to American perceived invincibility that was met by a desire to restablish itself.

Re: Gun violence

There's a certain level of rural vs. urban perception here because the attacks by people since Charles Whitman in 1966 (and before) are terrorism. However, they're not called terrorism because they're done by white people. Particularly white miles.

Even so, I know approximately 60 people who own firearms (or live in a house with them) and I know like 90 people in my normal life. None of them have engaged in gun violence or had accidents. This includes my mother who has an unloaded shotgun just casually in her house (and I find horrifying). Firearms are a ubiquitous part of Kentucky/West Virginia life and ownership is rarely anything that does result in accidents or mass death or even use.

Gun collecting, sporting use, and simply possession is something that is just confusing as all get out to people who don't live in it. However, in mypart of the world, it's no different than car collecting, sporting use, or collection. There's also a fact that a lot of the people who do own, collect, and use them are military/former military/cops.

They just own way way more than their job or ex job.

I'm outright against guns but the perception here is like saying, "Someone wants to come and kill your pets."

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2018 at 10:56:16 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#252514: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:01:17 AM

[up] The fight against ISIS was completely propped up by US efforts. It wouldn’t have been successful otherwise.

Of course, one could argue it should never have gotten to that point.

They should have sent a poet.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252515: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:04:03 AM

[up]Not trying to put down US efforts on that regard but laud Iraqi heroism.

And either way, that's one of the theaters of the Wo T which absolutely should not have been shut down and that's coming from a pacifist.

As it's a matter of life and death for the people facing literal enslavement.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 18th 2018 at 11:03:52 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#252516: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:19:23 AM

[up] Not to dismiss the efforts of the Iraqis, but they proved incapable of dealing with it on their own. Until the US took over training and command their forces lost every battle they fought.

Their armed forces were simply too corrupt to actually function as armed forces.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 18th 2018 at 11:19:30 AM

They should have sent a poet.
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#252517: Aug 18th 2018 at 11:31:16 AM

I'm reminded of a quote from Matthias (I think how it's spelled?): "The enemy has a vote in whether or not you are at war".

Leviticus 19:34
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#252518: Aug 18th 2018 at 12:03:11 PM

Firearms are a ubiquitous part of Kentucky/West Virginia life and ownership is rarely anything that does result in accidents or mass death or even use.

So is tripping and breaking your bones, but people are still careful in poor conditions. Not quite so with far too many people and deadly weapons. Open a few and you can see how disturbingly regular it is that children are accidentally shooting themselves which is just absurd.

Wyldchyld (Old as dirt)
#252519: Aug 18th 2018 at 1:54:48 PM

Disclaimer: I have no idea how reliable or not the Palmer Report is (I can certainly see that it advertises itself as opposing Trump, so it's probably not unbiased), but I saw a slightly different take on the Manafort jury's question about 'reasonable doubt' to what the mainstream media has been speculating, and since everyone is just speculating at the moment, I figure a slightly different interpretation is worth mentioning.

The real reason the Paul Manafort jury is inquiring about "reasonable doubt"

The jury in the Paul Manafort trial has just begun its deliberations, and now several major news outlets are reporting that jurors are already asking the judge in the case to provide them with the legal definition of "reasonable doubt." Taken out of context, this reporting has spooked a number of people into worrying that perhaps the jury is preparing to let Manafort off the hook. But within the context of the legal proceedings, this all means something very different.

Paul Manafort didn't bother to call a single witness in his defense. Nor did his legal team try to claim that he’s innocent. Instead Manafort's attorneys simply pushed the idea that he should be found not guilty based on reasonable doubt. Their argument, that Rick Gates was possibly behind all of it, is particularly absurd in light of the bookkeeper and accountant having testified that they conspired solely with Manafort to commit most of these crimes. So why is the jury doing this?

Because Paul Manafort's entire defense is based on two words, it's entirely reasonable for the jury to seek the legal definition of those two words before deciding to send him to prison for the rest of his natural lifespan. In fact, if you look at the details that are being reported here, the jury actually sent four questions to the judge, all of which were about the claims made by the defense. So this appears to be all about the jury trying to make sure it understands what it's talking about before making any decisions.

Keep in mind that Paul Manafort is facing eighteen different felony charges in this trial alone. Even if one of the jurors did conclude that there was reasonable doubt about the crimes that Manafort and Rick Gates committed together, this would not apply to the majority of the charges, which did not involve Gates. We'll see what happens tomorrow, but this question about reasonable doubt is not an indicator that anything is suddenly going right for Manafort.

Edited by Wyldchyld on Aug 18th 2018 at 9:54:23 AM

If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252520: Aug 18th 2018 at 1:59:34 PM

That sounds compelling, though due to my bias I'm going to avoid any committed opinion.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#252521: Aug 18th 2018 at 2:33:16 PM

When it comes to the Iraq war, isn't conspiracy already proven? Like, it's known for a fact that Bush lied to Congress about the WMDs, right? I've seen it discussed here back when someone was calling Hillary Clinton a warhawk.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
Imca (Veteran)
#252522: Aug 18th 2018 at 2:37:44 PM

I've become so jaded to this sort of news that my first reaction to it was "well at least nobody was killed."

I wish I could say I was only that jaded.... I legit had brought up yesterday to another group of people "Its bad enough over here that I am legitimately surprised its been this long since the last school shooting"

I.... am not happy to have had fate challenge that.... :/

Edited by Imca on Aug 18th 2018 at 2:39:46 AM

KnightofLsama Since: Sep, 2010
#252523: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:08:33 PM

In electoral democracy one will never get significant numbers of the opposition’s loyalists to vote for oneself, rather the goal should be driving down their turnout and getting them to stay home.

Be careful how big a brush you're using there. While this is the US politics thread and it's a relevant conclusion in the US as its electoral system stands now, that doesn't apply to all democracies. Those of us in democracies with compulsory voting and where voter suppression is a crime have a very different sort of political calculus.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252524: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:12:22 PM

[up]While it's true that democracies with mandatory voting logically don't have that phenomenon I don't see any evidence that non-mandatory democracies are any different then we are, loyalists is not some special American phenomenon it's a reflection of the interests that drive one to support a party and why for some people it's strong enough to make voting for another side unthinkable.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 18th 2018 at 7:17:55 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#252525: Aug 18th 2018 at 4:25:55 PM

Bill Maher once again proves himself to be a useful idiot for the right.

HBO talk-show host Bill Maher spoke out in defense of controversial right-wing host Alex Jones after Jones was suspended from several social media platforms, saying that everyone has a right to free speech.

Maher, noting that Jones has "told crazy lies" about him, said on his HBO show Friday that "if you're a liberal, you're supposed to be for free speech."

"That's free speech for the speech you hate. That's what free speech means. We're losing the thread of the concepts that are important to this country," he continued.

Edited by SciFiSlasher on Aug 18th 2018 at 6:26:54 AM

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."

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