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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
I dunno, I thought that was pretty clear from context and was confused as to why people were jumping on Marq. Gods knows he's not the first person here to express a sentiment like that.
Like, if I, a Canadian, said that I am completely completely on my government's side when it comes to how bad Saudi Arabia is, I doubt Marq would take that to mean that I think all Saudi are evil, and think that he would understand that I wasn't saying anything about him personally.
This is one of the reasons that I try to avoid criticizing nations as a whole and stick to gov't institutions. And even then there's the tacit acknowledgement that a lot of people in the gov't are just ordinary people trying to make a living and doing perfectly routine jobs that are vital to running a nation.
It's why I've been careful to always refer to the Kremlin as opposed to Russia whenever I talk about their online propaganda efforts.
Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:20:27 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedIt just hit me that Cap's last post on the previous page came right after I had edited my last post on said page (which he was responding to), and thus he probably didn't see the extra things that I added for clarification.
That's laudable, but in my case I do have a beef with the people of the USA themselves, though the reasoning is complicated. One of the major ones is that even to this day, there's way too many among even the morally upstanding ones who still cleave unto the "America is the greatest of nations" myth that is partly responsible for the country parading itself as the world policeman since WW 2. When you take that alongside the fact the nation's long, sordid history with racism, foreign interventions that just made things worse for the affected locals, propping dictatorships around the Third World just to contain the Communist bloc, the lack of apologeticness regarding the last two things, and such wonderful things as refusing to call the Armenian genocide what it is just to avoid pissing off Turkey out of NATO's sphere (see how well that turned out for you now)...
Or in other words, you Americans keep talking big about how your country is the Beacon of Freedom and Democracy and all that's Good on this earth, when the reality is that you're generally no better than any other country... and the majority of you (well, the ones that politically matter, apparently) seem to be adamantly vehement about refusing to consider that very thing as even remotely possible. Even when you fuck us up for no actual reason, all too often you still try to rationalize it as having been a necessary evil or an unavoidable accident, and then sweep it under the rug while trying to distract everyone with something else.
It's not just sheer hypocrisy, it's... it's... I honestly don't know what to call it.
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... I was using dramatic hyperbole?
Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 16th 2018 at 4:44:30 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.Having a beef with all of the people of the USA is going too far, especially since a lot of tropers, myself included, are US citizens.
Does your hatred count us, too?
Watch Symphogear... I really hoped that I didn't have to spell out that I'm not using such words in a universal, everyone-is-the-same way. When you have a box of 100 apples and see that 30 are completely rotten and maggot-ridden, while about 50 are in varying levels of rot and only 20 could be considered "safe" to eat, would you not call say that this box is "full" of rotten apples?
Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 16th 2018 at 4:47:35 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.![]()
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I assumed so, because all that stuff about having violent thoughts and what not would be way over the top and unnecessarily dramatic otherwise.
I’d also take issue with the assertion that the US is the same as every other country. We’ve done a lot of shitty stuff, but we’ve also done a whole lot of good stuff too. I’d argue the US has been a net positive overall, even if we still have a lot to work on.
Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 16th 2018 at 6:50:09 AM
They should have sent a poet.This is why it's also better to criticize specific trains of thought. It's perfectly valid to criticize American Exceptionalism and the systemic bigotry that's plagued this nation since it's inception. Saying things like "I have a beef with the American people in general" otoh does make it seem like one doesn't like all Americans. Especially considering the limitations of text-based communication.
We're certainly not as awful as, say, the DPRK. And our human rights record, while far from spotless, is better than the CCP's.
Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:54:18 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedI hate a lot of things about the USA, but I also love many other things about it. It just so happens that in the current state of affiars, the "weight" of the things I hate feels significantly more prominent than that of the things I love.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.It's an interesting thought exercise: would the world be a better or worse place if the USA either never existed or was more isolationist?
Personally I think the USA's overall done alright by the rest of the world, though it's also got a Long List of shitty actions that probably warrant at least giving an apology to others.
Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:56:46 PM
Disgusted, but not surprisedThat's arguable, to be honest. You'd first have to prove that the USA was really the cause behind all of those good things that you consider to give them a "net positive".
But I also resent the fact that even the ones who have a justifiable claim to being morally good have, in my eyes, failed to live up to the high expectations set by their collective belief in American exceptionalism. Deprogramming the rest of the population out of this mentality obviously hasn't been anywhere near the top of their priorities, for one.
It depends on whether or not another country would've taken its place. For all we know, it was inevitable that some country would become the economic, industrial and military juggernaut that the USA was when the Nazis and Imperial Japan made the error of provoking them.
Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 16th 2018 at 4:58:05 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Like I said, it's fair to criticize American Exceptionalism. But one shouldn't make the generalization that every American believes strongly in it or that they make excuses for the ones who use it as an excuse for really shitty behavior.
And concerning your response to my earlier post...one of the greatest tests of character is not adversity, but power. Would another nation have done more harm than good (or vice versa) than the USA if they had the same level of wealth and military might? Personally, I'd rather not see the likes of the CCP or Putin gain that kind of power.
Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 10:01:02 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
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I really think it would have been a worse place. On top of all the material contributions we’ve made, like scientific and medical breakthroughs, we’ve contributed massively to the world political climate, specifically the shift towards constitutional democracy, establishment of international law, and respect for human rights.
It’s perfectly fair to criticize the US’s many, many failings but I don’t think it’s fair to say we’re no better than any other country. There’s a reason we occupy the position we do. And I don’t think we’d want to see what the world would look like today if it was Russia or China occupying that position.
Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 16th 2018 at 7:02:57 AM
They should have sent a poet.I'm... gonna take a break from this argument and come back tomorrow. It's probably a bad idea to keep going when I really need to sleep soon.
Just one last thing, though, to clarify a bit of the context surrounding my feelings: Obama's presidency made me feel quite optimistic that the USA as a whole has finally woken up, realized their country has done a lot of wrongs, and started to try truly fixing things (towards us Arabs/Muslims, at least). He was pulling troops from Afghanistan and Iraq, leashed the CIA and their "enhanced interrogation" program, was working on fixing the Guantanamo debacle (too bad he kept getting blocked at every turn, but he tried)... and even actually put his foot down against Israel a couple of times in a manner that was a far cry from the largely-ineffectual-at-best gestures of his predecessors.
In short, where I used to see a Soiled City on a Hill during the Bush years at best, I was starting to see that there really is a Shining City underneath the soiled cover. I genuinely felt like I could start to let go of my bitterness and resentment towards the country, even if only bit by bit.
... then the 2016 election happened, and the alarming backsliding that I'm witnessing causes me to honestly feel that the "shine" I saw was just a mirage caused by a trick of the light.
TL;DR: The disillusionment hit me hard. Probably harder than any of you could imagine, because of where I live and what shit I have to deal with from your government, directly or indirectly (solidarity with fellow Arabs/Muslims is a major cause behind the anti-American sentiments here).
Edited by MarqFJA on Aug 16th 2018 at 5:23:50 PM
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.![]()
There was no backslide, this junk was here in the Obama years and has always been here. Yes, the US has its demons. There are serious problems we need to confront as a country.
That doesn't change what I said above though, I truly believe the world would have been worse off without the US.
They should have sent a poet.Is it really that loaded to say " I don't think the US is any better than any other country"?
To me that sort of reads as a moral neutral. Ideally we should be treating every country as on equal footing. We can personally love a country for specific reasons, but I personally don't like the idea of... ranking... countries, I suppose?
Read my stories!Mc Connell canceled the August recess to keep Democrats from campaigning back home and force as many bills through as he can before election day. He might be having some difficulty with the latter as Republicans haven't been showing up for votes.
Are Blockchains the Answer for Secure Elections? Probably Not
:
A raft of start-ups has been hawking what they see as a revolutionary solution: repurposing blockchains, best known as the digital transaction ledgers for cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin, to record votes. Backers say these internet-based systems would increase voter access to elections while improving tamper-resistance and public auditability. But experts in both cybersecurity and voting see blockchains as needlessly complicated, and no more secure than other online ballots.
Existing voting systems do leave plenty of room for suspicion: Voter impersonation is theoretically possible (although investigations have repeatedly found negligible rates for this in the U.S.); mail-in votes can be altered or stolen; election officials might count inaccurately; and nearly every electronic voting machine has proved hackable. Not surprisingly, a Gallup poll published prior to the 2016 election found a third of Americans doubted votes would be tallied properly.
Edited by rmctagg09 on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:12:16 AM
Hugging a Vanillite will give you frostbite.archonspeaks: I disagree. I'd say they're not the same, but I do see them as being equally valued in terms of just "being a country".
Like going "oh britain is better than france, as a country" just seems like a bad rhetoric to get into. We can talk about specific numbers "X has a higher GDP than Y" but that doesn't mean I'd just flat out call a country "better."
The term is super loaded imo.
Edit: it's ok if other people use it, I just don't think it's a big deal if other people don't want to, or don't want to call the US better than other countries.
Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:27:11 AM
Read my stories!

Yeah, but it's not the first time I talked here about my hatred for the USA in general. I guess I figured I would only be stating the obvious by elaborating.
Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.