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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#252301: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:33:33 AM

To be fair, abolishing the Electoral College is unnecessary, strictly speaking, to obtain decisions based on the popular vote. If every state could end up agreeing to have their electors abide by the result of the popular vote then it would be relegated to a completely ceremonial role.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#252302: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:34:55 AM

For reference, I only brought up the EC as the first thing that came to mind as an area where my opinion differs from the group at large for reasons mentioned in my original post (concerns that big sweeping change in one shot will as much harm than good).

I very much would prefer to let the dead horse rest than beat on it more, especially since as mentioned, it's a moot point right now anyway.

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 16th 2018 at 10:36:59 AM

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#252303: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:35:04 AM

[up][up]A ceremonial role is too large a role.

Edited by CrimsonZephyr on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:34:53 PM

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252304: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:46:41 AM

••• In actuality, I reversed my opinion because of everyone's arguments.

Thank you for explaining why I was wrong.

I'm now in favor of a straight popular vote.

Oh ok, glad to see that we managed to convince you smile

To be fair, abolishing the Electoral College is unnecessary, strictly speaking, to obtain decisions based on the popular vote. If every state could end up agreeing to have their electors abide by the result of the popular vote then it would be relegated to a completely ceremonial role.

Excellent point, this is a much more realistic result and would be much better then the current status-quo.

A ceremonial role is too large a role.

While I sympathize with the ideological position you have my fundamental issue with the electoral college is practical, if we can get every state to adopt popular vote then I would be fine with it existing.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:48:30 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252305: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:48:48 AM

Sometimes you need a couple of days to sit on things before you change your mind.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#252306: Aug 16th 2018 at 10:06:47 AM

You know if Trump dropped an N-Bomb on recording, his base would go "well, it's unfair that they get to say it and we can't. We're the real victims here, and they need thicker (and ideally lighter) skin."

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252307: Aug 16th 2018 at 10:10:27 AM

[up]Yup, still if it decreases pro-Republican turnout and increases anti-Republican turnout then it can still thankfully be hugely damaging all the same.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 1:09:59 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#252308: Aug 16th 2018 at 10:23:08 AM

Or they would try to excuse it by saying, "He was just saying it in the heat of the moment! He wasn't even thinking!"

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252309: Aug 16th 2018 at 10:25:23 AM

[up]Of course they would, doesn't change my point.

The Republican base has shrunk as people stopped identifying as Republican and that can still boost pro-Democrat turnout, honestly I think we really need to stop overvaluing the opinions of his loyalists.

Literally every politician has loyalists and that still allows for defeat.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 1:24:58 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#252310: Aug 16th 2018 at 10:39:13 AM

Here's the thing:

You know what happened the last time a group of wealthy African Americans collectly got together and used their wealth to help other black people?

The area was carpet bombed as if ISIS had invaded America

... Reading about this organized massacre and US society subsequently pretending that it never happened is filling my mind and heart with    extremely dark and violent thoughts   . As if I didn't already have enough deep-rooted hatred for this country.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#252311: Aug 16th 2018 at 11:02:24 AM

[up] Your country (Saudi Arabia) literally just threatened Canada.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252312: Aug 16th 2018 at 11:03:38 AM

[up][up]The Wikipedia article calls it a race riot.

If you go outside of basic history textbooks (the same ones that give state’s rights as a cause of the Civil War and skim over Jim Crow), and go look up the individual “race riots” that get mentioned in passing... like 90% of them are a white mob attacking a black community, with far, FAR more black deaths than white, and only black people facing consequences by being tried, executed, or lynched afterwards. The other 10% are riots in response to a grave injustice (like the riots after MLK was assassinated).

The term race riot makes me sick because it’s generally used to imply black mob violence and disorder, when in fact WHITE mobs did most of the violence, and riots by black people were provoked by WHITE malfeasance.

Edited by wisewillow on Aug 16th 2018 at 2:03:23 PM

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#252313: Aug 16th 2018 at 11:32:30 AM

For those not following it super closely, here's an article about the West Virginia impeachments, detailing all of the accused corruption, as well as pointing fingers at exactly why the GOP is doing it.

    Full article text 
Emphasis mine.
What the hell is going on in West Virginia? On Monday, the House of Delegates impeached the entire state Supreme Court on charges focusing on the justices’ lavish spending on office refurbishments. Republicans, who led the drive to oust the whole bench, insisted the court was irredeemably corrupt. Many Democrats countered that GOP legislators were staging a coup to seize control of the judiciary. One justice, Robin Davis, resigned rather than allow herself to be removed, proclaiming that the impeachment push was a “disaster for the rule of law” and an attempt by the legislature “to dismantle a separate branch of government.”

While Davis isn’t wrong, the court isn’t wholly blameless either. Republicans are attempting to stack it—but the justices made that task easy by engaging in conduct ranging from questionable to certainly illegal. Republicans are citing the serious allegations against two justices to justify removing all four, and they have timed their attacks to ensure that Republican Gov. Jim Justice, rather than West Virginia voters, will be able to select their replacements, thereby dragging the court far to the right.

Start with the easy part. Menis Ketchum, a Democrat, repeatedly used a state-owned vehicle for personal use—including golf outings at a Virginia country club—and charged taxpayers for gas. Before he could be impeached, he abruptly resigned from the court in July and later pleaded guilty to one felony count of wire fraud for illegally using a state fuel card. Allen H. Loughry, a Republican, was indicted in June on 22 counts of fraud, false statements, and witness tampering. Federal prosecutors have accused Loughry of using state vehicles and credit cards for personal use. They also allege that he illegally moved a historic desk to his home and lied about it to federal investigators. He has been suspended without pay from the court but refuses to resign. Ironically, Loughry is the author of a book bemoaning corruption in West Virginia politics. He allegedly drove his state car to the Greenbrier resort in White Sulphur Springs five times for book signings despite a law limiting the car’s use to official business.

The allegations against the remaining justices are not so cut-and-dried. Chief Justice Margaret Workman, a Democrat, charged the court $111,035 for office renovations, including an $8,892 sofa. (Loughry outdid her with a $32,000 suede couch.) Justice Beth Walker, who ran as a nonpartisan candidate but is a Republican, got $130,655 in taxpayer money to upgrade her chambers. Justice Robin Davis, a Democrat, spent $500,278 to modernize her office. Big-ticket purchases included two floor rugs for $28,194 and an $8,098 office chair that, according to Davis, eased her spinal arthritis.

Whatever the merits of Republicans’ claims, it appears undeniable that they timed their blitz with the intent of shifting the court’s ideological balance.

Unseemly? Perhaps. Illegal? Probably not. Under an unusual law that the legislature may soon revise, the court has near-total control over its own budget. But West Virginia is currently facing a painful budget shortfall that led the state to slash pay for many public employees, including teachers. The justices’ decision to overhaul their workspaces in the midst of a statewide financial crisis is, at a minimum, unsavory. Similarly, Loughry, Davis, and Workman are accused of helping abet a scheme to overpay retired judges who filled in on circuit courts. This practice was not clearly unlawful, though it is difficult to defend in light of the state’s dire budget woes.

Can a justice’s distasteful but legal actions serve as grounds for impeachment? West Virginia law is ambiguous on this point. The state constitution allows the legislature to impeach and remove a judge “for maladministration, corruption, incompetency, gross immorality, neglect of duty, or any high crime or misdemeanor.” Ketchum, who has admitted to committing wire fraud, clearly falls into this category. Loughry, who’s accused of both flagrant misuse of taxpayer money and attempting to cover up that misuse, would also plainly fit the bill if those allegations are borne out. Workman, Walker, and Davis’ injudicious use of state funds, on the other hand, do not obviously qualify as impeachable offenses.

House Republicans have decided that the state constitution gives the legislature broad latitude to determine what qualifies as maladministration and corruption. Republicans impeached all four sitting justices, though Davis promptly retired to avoid removal. The articles of impeachment accuse the justices of fraud, ethical breaches, violation of their oaths, and “waste of state funds.” Loughry, Workman, and Walker will soon face trials on these charges in the state Senate. Republicans hold 22 seats in that chamber but need 23 votes to remove the justices from the court. It is unclear whether any Senate Democrats will join with Republicans to oust the rest of the court.

Although few Democrats expressed sympathy for the justices under fire, many accused their GOP colleagues of staging a power grab to subvert the separation of powers. They have a point.

West Virginia’s Supreme Court is elected, and before getting rocked by scandal, the current court leaned 3–2 toward Democrats. It was, by no means, a liberal court. But unlike, say, the Wisconsin Supreme Court, it has not aggressively bolstered the GOP’s agenda.

Now the governor and legislature appear eager to change that. The justices’ spending habits have been widely known since at least 2017, when a local news station published videos of the renovations along with their price tags. Republican legislators complained at the time but declined to take action on impeachment until this summer. Indeed, Democrats attempted to instigate the process much earlier, but Republicans dragged their feet until August.

The manner in which justices are replaced under West Virginia law makes this timing highly suspicious. If a justice leaves office at least 84 days before the next general election, voters will have the opportunity to replace her in that election. But if a justice leaves office less than 84 days before the next general election, the governor appoints a replacement who will serve for nearly two years—in this case, until May 2020—at which point the state would hold a special election.

Tuesday, Aug. 14 marked exactly 84 days before the November election. The House passed its articles of impeachment minutes before midnight on Monday, Aug. 13. Davis stepped down on Tuesday morning and made her retirement retroactive, effective Monday, so that voters will have the opportunity to replace her in the fall.

Loughry, Workman, and Walker have refused to follow suit. Instead, they have decided to defend themselves in the Senate. Of the three, Walker, an outspoken conservative with a devoted Twitter following, seems most likely to prevail. Republicans had initially spared Walker from impeachment for what looked like blatantly partisan reasons. But following Democratic complaints of hypocrisy, they charged her as well, both for excessive spending and for purportedly hiring outside help in drafting one judicial opinion. (Neither act is illegal.)

Whatever the merits of Republicans’ claims, it appears undeniable that they timed their blitz on the court with the intent of shifting its ideological balance without any check by voters. Gov. Justice, a close ally of Donald Trump, will appoint conservative Republicans to replace every justice the legislature removes. His appointees will serve until May 2020 before voters get the chance to replace them, surely enough time for the remade court to rubber-stamp Republican measures. Spending too much money on office furniture is a bad look for justices. Kicking out judges for partisan purposes is a bad omen for democracy.

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#252314: Aug 16th 2018 at 11:42:53 AM

EDIT: Self-thumped

Edited by Reflextion on Aug 16th 2018 at 3:05:46 PM

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#252315: Aug 16th 2018 at 11:58:57 AM

Senate Unanimously Passes Resolution Condemning Media Attacks: ‘The Press is Not the Enemy of the People’

Pretty ridiculous such a thing even needed to be voted on in the first place, but I'm glad they at least acknowledge Trump (and by extension, the people who agree with him on this issue) is out of line.

Edited by speedyboris on Aug 16th 2018 at 2:01:19 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252316: Aug 16th 2018 at 11:59:18 AM

[up][up]Yeah no, that's neither a productive nor an especially rational position.

Yes the United States has a rather nasty history that everyone should acknowledge, but that is neither unique nor justifies that kind of feelings. Every nation is built on awfulness and it's up to us to make it better, this does nothing of the sort.

You can be angry and horrified without being like this.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 2:58:47 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252317: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:05:20 PM

Here’s my take on responding to this kind of horror.

When you find out about awful things, do you face them head on, or ignore/make excuses?

Do you try to learn more, to find out how the horror affects your community today?

Do you acknowledge the role played by your ancestors and the benefits which you may have received?

Do you try to do better? To find ways people are fighting those horrors today, and to contribute your voice, time, and/or money as an ally/accomplice?

The answers to those questions should define how you see yourself, not your nation’s role in the horrors themselves.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#252318: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:05:52 PM

[up][up]Probably shouldn't expect Reflextion to do anything besides vent their emotions. That's all they've been doing for awhile.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 16th 2018 at 2:05:26 PM

Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#252319: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:08:37 PM

[up] and others: Yeah, pretty much. It's been... pretty fucking hard to pay any attention to the news in general or this forum in particular without my anger and depression getting cranked up, but I still feel like I need to pay attention to what's going on in the world.

Plus I also feel like not being angry is the first step on normalizing the current state of affairs, and that can just go fuck itself.

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#252320: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:10:16 PM

[up]At the same time, I agree with Spartan it's both not productive, but also pretty annoying.

Which is why for the most part I just try and ignore you, if I'm being honest.

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#252321: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:24:50 PM

I think being angry and upset about the current situation is wholly appropriate, I am constantly. What's important is contributing to the conversation in meaningful ways. As hard as it is to say, this is not the place to vent your feelings. You may, but you do have to contribute more than just venting, and ideally vent less than you contribute. Therapists are much better outlets for venting than forums are, and websites like BetterHelp can provide online counseling.

It's okay to say that things suck politically, because they really do, but talking about ways to make it better is the purpose of the thread.

Edited by PushoverMediaCritic on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:25:37 PM

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#252322: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:30:50 PM

From four pages back, but holy hell this one - Dana White... is alleged to have misused support staff by asking them to, among other things, fetch her laundry, go to the pharmacy for her, and take care of her mortgage paperwork. Talk about The Last of These Is Not Like the Others. The first two are almost understandable in a "Oh, you're heading that way? Mind doing this busywork for me while you're there?" sort of way. But fucking mortgage paperwork?!

Edited by ironballs16 on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:31:03 PM

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252323: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:32:36 PM

You have to deal with anger productively. Remind people to check their voter registration; volunteer with a local community organization; call and yell at your representative or senator; donate $5 to an immigrant rights group.

Panicking and venting may be cathartic short term, but they don’t help yourself or others when done too often.

You can be angry and not normalize atrocities without hurting yourself or others in your anger.

Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#252324: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:43:39 PM

Here's the thing. The problem with anger, upsetness, or disgust is that so often that's the end result. That is unproductive at best, and probably harmful to that person and those around them.

If anger is your beginning point and from there it drives you to do something about the anger, then it could be productive (assuming, of course, you channel it positively. Technically this is describing the guy who shot up Comet Pizza, after all).

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#252325: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:47:51 PM

I feel like the point has been made now.


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