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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252276: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:03:35 AM

I suppose they can, I just don’t think that that is the right direction to go to counter-act corporate power for reasons that have been stated.

I don't see how workers getting more representation isn't the right direction to counter corporate power, it may need to be tweaked to have a better results if the current plans are insufficient but that would be a great way to have corporations behave more decently and less sociopathic.

And to be honest, I haven’t heard too many people talking about plans to expand union power and organization, which has got me thinking that Democrats (or really any major political actor) by and large do not see labor action and power as a solution to this problem.

And to be honest, I haven’t heard too many people talking about plans to expand union power and organization, which has got me thinking that Democrats (or really any major political actor) by and large do not see labor action and power as a solution to this problem.

I would like to be proven wrong on that, but Even then I feel it would not be a high priority for most (if not all) candidates.

Well a quick search found that they have this so it's clearly on the radar, I think it could be said that they could and should focus on it more but it's not exactly out of the party Overton Window.

Union organizing has primarily been grassroots, not party. SEIU, Unite Here, National Nurses United, etc, have been very active. A lot of online journalists are trying to unionize too.

This too.

Even if the party could work on its focus on unions there is strong grassroots push for them so there is interest.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#252277: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:09:16 AM

And that right to work law was just voted against.

So it's not like unions are being completely ignored.

Aninymos Founder and Chairman of Tropers Aninymos from United States (Troper Journeyman) Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
Founder and Chairman of Tropers Aninymos
#252278: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:13:10 AM

Gonna branch off into the website, over here. How many liberal tropers are there compared to conservatives, like myself?

End of tape, please select another cassette.
PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#252279: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:20:10 AM

Depends on what you define as "conservative". Plenty of people here identify as conservative but want nothing to do with the insanity of the modern Republican party.

Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#252280: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:25:16 AM

[up] Not plenty, really, when you compare it to the number of liberal tropers, which are like 95% of the people who post here. I used to be more moderate, but this website combined with seeing the faults of many right-wing policies executed by Trump turned me more progressive.

Life is unfair...
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#252281: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:34:20 AM

Mind you, I think the fact I'm a (former) Bernie supporter, tepid about Hillary Clinton, underwhelmed by the Democratic Party, pro-rural America, and very much a supporter of institutions like the Electoral College means I get the role of The Complainer Is Always Wrong or Token Evil Teammate here.

You know your argument isn't doing well when you have to play the victim card. Seriously, outright saying that you're the Token Evil Teammate here? Jeez, get over yourself.

I was a former Bernie supporter too, Charles. Then I learned just how unfeasible many of his policies were and just how questionable many of his social views were. So if you could cut it out with this "everyone's out to get me" crap, that would be very nice.

As for your argument, I'll have to call complete BS. Saying "well some minorities made it!" while ignoring the continued overwhelming prevalence of the black-white wage gap, school-to-prison pipeline, mass incarceration of African-Americans and its impact on socioeconomic mobility, and inter-generational poverty is precisely why so many black people roll their eyes at white "allies."

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#252282: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:41:47 AM

You have distinguish between structural conservatism — the government, practices, and norms should be preserved — and ideological conservatism — economics, social policy, race relations, etc. Pretty much everyone at least somewhat mainstream in their thinking is the first definition to some degree, so the effort to reclaim "conservative" as being simply about preserving what came before would render the word meaningless.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#252283: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:52:22 AM

Guys just to point out, I think Charles’ actual point about African Americans and the American dream was just that while the vast majority were prevented from achieving it by bigoted white people, some did manage it against the odds and we do them a disservice by ignoring that.

It’s the same way we need to remember the victories of native Americans against the US, they were victimised and basicly wiped out, but they wern’t helpless victims, they fought and some of them achieved victories despite overwhelming odds.

Also I always find it amusing how a number of troopers here try to paint themselves as the outcast who goes against the grain because they’re more left wing, that’s not it guys, I’m one of if not the most hardcore left wing person here and I don’t get the crap you do, it’s about tone and comunicational ability, not being a ‘real’ progressive.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 16th 2018 at 2:53:46 PM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#252284: Aug 16th 2018 at 7:59:56 AM

Here's the thing:

You know what happened the last time a group of wealthy African Americans collectly got together and used their wealth to help other black people?

The area was carpet bombed as if ISIS had invaded America

BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#252285: Aug 16th 2018 at 8:05:13 AM

I'm seeing a few outlets repost Paul Ryan's comment about how Trump was "just trolling" as a means of making him eat crow.
Except Trump's supporters aren't capable of recognizing it as crow, they think he's being served cornish game hens or something.
Not just that but it would also require corporations to have their workers elect 40% of their board of directors.
I'm honestly not sure how this would work out, but I have the feeling that it wouldn't take more than one corporate election for the whole thing to be rigged anyway. I mean, Bezos isn't going to give all the min-wage warehouse workers time off to vote for his board unless he's already fixed the election anyway.
Roger Stone posted a Nazi Space Force meme on his Instagram
Who's Roger Stone? Because I'm assuming I shouldn't be surprised about the Nazi retweets ...
Certainly, forcing companies that want the benefit of legal personhood to have the accountability of a person isn't stretching much.
I'd still like to know how you jail a corporation when they're guilty of negligent homicide.note 
I think the fact I'm a (former) Bernie supporter, tepid about Hillary Clinton, underwhelmed by the Democratic Party, pro-rural America, and very much a supporter of institutions like the Electoral College means I get the role of The Complainer Is Always Wrong or Token Evil Teammate here.
[edit] I think my original response here was too close to attacking the person, so I hope the edit is politer. I too voted for Bernie, like many of us here on the forum; when he lost, I went all-in for Hillary, not because I particularly cared for hernote  but because the alternativenote . Since 2016, he has proven himself to be unreliable as a progressive IMO, but that doesn't mean I dislike people who still support him. I don't recall seeing you call for the murder of the 1%note  I don't think you can call yourself the Token Evil Teammate either, nor is that a label we should be applying to people on the forum.
Gonna branch off into the website, over here. How many liberal tropers are there compared to conservatives, like myself?
In general, it feels as though there are more liberal tropers than conservatives. There's plenty of us, like myself, who have been pushed from "moderate" into "progressive" by just how openly evil the modern GOP isnote ; we have others who used to call themselves conservative until Trump won the nomination; I don't think we have any open Trump supporters because supporting sexual assault and racism is against TvTropes rules.
while the vast majority were prevented from achieving it by bigoted white people, some did manage it against the odds and we do them a disservice by ignoring that.
Isn't this kind of the whole reason we have all the [Minority] History Month events? But that seems like a better question for the Race thread.

Edited by BlueNinja0 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:02:07 AM

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#252286: Aug 16th 2018 at 8:11:53 AM

Guys just to point out, I think Charles’ actual point about African Americans and the American dream was just that while the vast majority were prevented from achieving it by bigoted white people, some did manage it against the odds and we do them a disservice by ignoring that.

It’s the same way we need to remember the victories of native Americans against the US, they were victimised and basicly wiped out, but they wern’t helpless victims, they fought and some of them achieved victories despite overwhelming odds.

Also I always find it amusing how a number of troopers here try to paint themselves as the outcast who goes against the grain because they’re more left wing, that’s not it guys, I’m one of if not the most hardcore left wing person here and I don’t get the crap you do, it’s about tone and comunicational ability, not being a ‘real’ progressive.

Nobody's ignoring their achievements, but the fact of the matter is that those personal achievements are almost tiny compared to the ongoing systemic oppression of African-Americans and other marginalized communities, and for the vast majority of them, the American Dream is just not real. Nobody's saying that they're not fighting to change this, but at this point in time,it still hasn't amounted to much.

Also, I'm not sure what you're even talking about in that last sentence. If anything, it's Charles who's complaining about some imaginary "crap" that he gets, while trying to act like he's some sort of persecuted outcast.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#252287: Aug 16th 2018 at 8:14:56 AM

Gonna branch off into the website, over here. How many liberal tropers are there compared to conservatives, like myself?
I think I identify as somewhere in the area of "Liberal on principle, Conservative in method", with the caveat that I mean "Conservative" in the sense of "not progressing too much, too quickly".

Between things like the current GOP, the antics of the Unicorn Brigade/Messianic Left/Bernie Bro types, and various violent extremists, I've come to believe that extremism in any form is a recipe for disaster. For that reason I'm always immediately wary whenever things like the "abolish the electoral college" come up. Putting aside the likelihood of it or something similar actually happening or legitimate arguments for or against such an event, big sweeping changes in one go like that, imo, feel likely to do more harm than good to me. At the very least, they're not something to take lightly.

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:19:14 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252288: Aug 16th 2018 at 8:26:07 AM

I'm not ideologically conservative but I like hierarchy and I believe that the system is beneficial enough that it should be protected.

Obviously it's also flawed and should be massively reformed but I usually can't stand the people who talk about revolution and ignore the damage that could cause.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:38:52 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#252289: Aug 16th 2018 at 8:29:09 AM

[up][up] Frankly it reminds me of "racism is over, we elected a black man as president" rhetoric that is terribly common.

And yeah, Conservative and Liberal have sort of lost meaning, especially since a lot of the Fiscal/Social things don't line up. The GOP isn't fiscally conservative in the slightest anymore.

I mean, I literally had "Republican" in my job title at one point and the party zoomed past me in terms of insanity a few years back.

Edited by Larkmarn on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:29:22 AM

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#252290: Aug 16th 2018 at 8:34:49 AM

Also, I'm not sure what you're even talking about in that last sentence. If anything, it's Charles who's complaining about some imaginary "crap" that he gets,

The last sentence was aimed at Charles, I’m perfectly capable of explaining his intended meaning in one sentence and calling him out of incorrect framing in another.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
BlueNinja0 The Mod with the Migraine from Taking a left at Albuquerque Since: Dec, 2010 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
The Mod with the Migraine
#252291: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:01:56 AM

Let's ease back a little before this becomes a real dog-pile, guys.

So about that N-word tape that's been talked about ... anyone want to bet that Trump supporters will make that the ringtone on their phones?

That’s the epitome of privilege right there, not considering armed nazis a threat to your life. - Silasw
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#252292: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:04:54 AM

@aninymos: I don’t identify with any of the political cliques that much. Whether left, right, or center, there does not seem to be any ideology that is fully in agreement with empirical reality. Call me a political pragmatist if you must, or apolitically engaged.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:05:22 PM

nombretomado (Season 1) Relationship Status: [TOP SECRET]
#252293: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:07:40 AM

A couple things:

~CharlesPhipps, it does no favors to state what you think people's perceptions of you are. As demonstrated handily in the last few posts, it quickly becomes a personally framed discussion that does not add to the conversational quality.

Everyone, please refrain from engaging with the ill-advised self-troping as a topic.

Continued posts in this manner will get thumped.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252294: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:11:08 AM

Sorry, I wasn't trying to insinuate I get any crap. I was saying I'm a disagreeable jerkass.

:)

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:17:46 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Grafite Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Less than three
#252295: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:16:49 AM

For that reason I'm always immediately wary whenever things like the "abolish the electoral college" come up. Putting aside the likelihood of it or something similar actually happening or legitimate arguments for or against such an event, big sweeping changes in one go like that, imo, feel likely to do more harm than good to me.

That's not extremism, it's just simply not possible to gradually phase out the electoral college, as if that even made sense. And honestly, do you want yet another election where a generally disliked extremist wins on account of a technicality, only present because of sweet tradition, to change things to a common sense system?

Life is unfair...
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252296: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:18:48 AM

FYI, the infamous Tulsa, Oklahoma terrorist attack is notable because a lot of people who live there are mad that people act like it ceased to exist after the invasion by white people. They claim it gives the wrong impression that they were broken by it and the area was destroyed. Instead, they are trying to get a movie made about it to remind people they REBUILT and bigger than before.

https://www.theringer.com/2018/6/28/17511818/black-wall-street-oklahoma-greenwood-destruction-tulsa

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:21:45 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252297: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:24:55 AM

[up][up][up] For what it's worth I don't think you are, it's just that there are issues that several people disagree with you on. It does't mean you're a bad person or unlikable.

[up][up]Honestly we've had this discussion with Charles before on the Electoral College and I don't think it's going to go in productive directions again, or even if there are any productive directions to go.

Quite a few of us would love it to be gone while he does not, since it's not realistically going to be removed anytime in the foreseeable future I think it's a moot point.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:31:26 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252298: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:25:43 AM

In actuality, I reversed my opinion because of everyone's arguments.

Thank you for explaining why I was wrong.

I'm now in favor of a straight popular vote.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#252299: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:26:22 AM

[up][up][up][up]The College isn't just there due to tradition, it is legally ingrained, and a good chunk of the political establishment have a vested interest in stopping reform and/or don't want to invest (the admittedly massive amounts of) political capital in doing so.

In the current political environment, abolishing the EC is not a viable policy option. It would take decades of work, and its far from a sure thing.

Edited by Rationalinsanity on Aug 16th 2018 at 1:26:56 PM

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#252300: Aug 16th 2018 at 9:32:17 AM

"For that reason I'm always immediately wary whenever things like the "abolish the electoral college" come up. Putting aside the likelihood of it or something similar actually happening or legitimate arguments for or against such an event, big sweeping changes in one go like that, imo, feel likely to do more harm than good to me. At the very least, they're not something to take lightly."

The Electoral College is one of those things that can only be justified if it's unchanged — a blatantly anti-democratic institution with a blatantly anti-democratic purpose. Let's say, for example, that we started doing proportionate distribution of EV totals, i.e., you win 33% of the vote, you win a third the electors. The issue here is that E Vs are real numbers, discrete and easily chopped up, but voting percentages are based on a much more granular total. So, Wyoming, with its three E Vs, could give 1, 2, or 3 votes to a candidate, but that candidate could have won 47% of the popular vote. Let's say he won a little shy of 50%, so that he was equidistant from both 33% and 66% — how many E Vs would he be entitled to? Should we start awarding people 0.5 E Vs, 0.25 E Vs to make things more proportional? How would an elector even cast a quarter vote? Should we start tabulating district wins, and if so, aren't we just devolving the problem so that the 49% or 33% of the people in each district aren't being accounted for when the E Vs are tabulated. In every proposal to modify the Electoral College, the question, "Why not ust use the popular vote?" is always valid, because it's the only method that keeps the election democratic. The rest are just half-measures that never address the problem inherent in the Electoral College — structurally, it will always remain the same no matter how proportional you make it because the ultimate goal is for a small body of people to elect the President.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

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