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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
The USA has a lot of wealth and opportunity up for grabs...but it offers little in the way of help when it comes to actually getting a piece of the pie. Especially when you factor in bigotry both personal and systemic. The USA is a country where you can potentially make it very big...but it's also a country where you are far more likely to fall and never be able to get up again. The USA doesn't have much in the way of safety nets.
It also doesn't help that a lot of the people who do make it big and get their piece of the pie want more pie and make a point of making sure others don't get it.
Edited by M84 on Aug 15th 2018 at 11:16:49 PM
Disgusted, but not surprised^Acknowledging that every institution and most of the US's history has been and still is stacked heavily against African-Americans doesn't invalidate the achievements of the greats, it makes them even more triumphant.
You don't say "yeah, he climbed the mountain, but it was really tall, so that kind of diminishes the achievement".
It's been fun.The accomplishments of my people despite America's institutional racism do not erase the innumerable attempts - the vast majority of them successful, and ongoing - to keep them poor and uneducated.
Frankly, you're getting uncomfortably close to "bootstraps" territory.
Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 15th 2018 at 1:04:33 PM
i'm tired, my friendIt's completely valid to point out that minorities in the USA face a lot of obstacles due to being minorities, both systemic and personal. That in no way diminishes the accomplishments of minorities. If anything, we should be pointing out the systemic problems more — we've been ignoring them for far too long.
Disgusted, but not surprisedYou have to keep in mind that the American Dream being a dream does not diminish its value. It's an American vision, not of today, but of tomorrow-that we should be working toward a society wherein hard work and merit lead to upward mobility.
America has yet to pull it off, and probably will never fully realize it. However, the vision itself, and the task of working toward, has value.
Leviticus 19:34Honestly Charles Phipps, it's kind of weird these kinds of things keep turning into debates with you, especially when I honestly don't think you mean for them to.
Maybe work on letting things go quicker.
That's basically my take, with the caveat that there's nothing uniquely "American" about it. Like, every country has people in it working to make it better, despite facing terrible issues, often issues that in a just world wouldn't exist. But that's not our world.
Edited by LSBK on Aug 15th 2018 at 12:21:19 PM
@M84: It’s naive to say we here; the American state and public already regards us as second class citizens (who have the distinct “privilege” of being less regularly mistreated than African Americans or Latinos), and with tensions with China likely heading towards a new sustained Cold War we’re already seeing the return of thinly veiled Yellow Peril rhetoric (thanks Trump), and I expect it will only get uglier from here unless China ends up flaming out like Japan ultimately did.
Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2018 at 1:55:14 PM
I find it truly sad the way the US tends to latch on to percieved enermies from within and without to justify excluding its own citizens from the government process. It hurts me personally becuase I have family there, and they deserve a chance at progress that many in my family didn't truly have here.
On to other topics, has Omarosa released the full audiobook of Trump singing nigga by gansgta rap? Or is it still just a threat?
They won't change their minds, but it would at least be interesting (in a Bile Fascination way) to see them try to excuse Trump outright using racial slurs.
Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2018 at 3:14:37 AM
Disgusted, but not surprisedI agree with Protagonist - the American Dream is valuable as an ideal to work for, to keep in mind when you're governing. If we're failing to live up to it, then we have something to work back towards.
To me, Ellis Island is sacred ground, for all its failings. If we can get back to the days when we accepted 98% of everyone who ended up on Ellis Island, that'd be awesome - even if it's not a goal we can get through the current political climate, it's still a vision to fight for. Same with the diamond-shaped society and the ridiculously prosperous middle class of the '50s, only this time we should open that middle class up to all races.
It's not a debate, merely a statement of opinion. You can't say factually African Americans haven't been shit on by American society for 200+ years while you should also know those who have succeeded against all odds should be lauded. The issue is whether that means the dream is perverse or not.
You're right, I tend to shoot you my mouth off a lot and get into arguments over trivialities—which I have to work on.
Mind you, I think the fact I'm a (former) Bernie supporter, tepid about Hillary Clinton, underwhelmed by the Democratic Party, pro-rural America, and very much a supporter of institutions like the Electoral College means I get the role of The Complainer Is Always Wrong or Token Evil Teammate here.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 16th 2018 at 5:04:38 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.Yeah, I disagree.
Which is the nature of it. There's not an attempt by me to debate here, though, just saying that it should be fixed rather than discarded.
But it's really just arguing whether the glass is half-full or mostly empty. Which is semantics really.
Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 16th 2018 at 5:08:48 AM
Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.I'm honestly not sure if that's more or less of a long shot
If it were just this or union power then you might have a point, but they aren't mutually exclusive.
Democrats can absolutely support more union powers and this. Which together should make things much better.
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:24:20 AM
"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
I suppose they can, I just don’t think that that is the right direction to go to counter-act corporate power for reasons that have been stated.
And to be honest, I haven’t heard too many people talking about plans to expand union power and organization, which has got me thinking that Democrats (or really any major political actor) by and large do not see labor action and power as a solution to this problem.
I would like to be proven wrong on that, but Even then I feel it would not be a high priority for most (if not all) candidates.

Edited by SciFiSlasher on Aug 15th 2018 at 10:12:34 AM
"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."