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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#252251: Aug 15th 2018 at 8:12:12 PM

[up][up] The problem is that the "American Dream" was concocted in the first place, as if though America actually was any better at all. Yet another piece of the "American exceptionalism" myth. Other countries have improved as well, and in may ways, to far greater extents than the U.S.

Edited by SciFiSlasher on Aug 15th 2018 at 10:12:34 AM

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
Pachylad (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#252252: Aug 15th 2018 at 8:14:23 PM

They call it the American Dream because you have to be asleep to believe it [/smugface]

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252253: Aug 15th 2018 at 8:16:25 PM

The USA has a lot of wealth and opportunity up for grabs...but it offers little in the way of help when it comes to actually getting a piece of the pie. Especially when you factor in bigotry both personal and systemic. The USA is a country where you can potentially make it very big...but it's also a country where you are far more likely to fall and never be able to get up again. The USA doesn't have much in the way of safety nets.

It also doesn't help that a lot of the people who do make it big and get their piece of the pie want more pie and make a point of making sure others don't get it.

Edited by M84 on Aug 15th 2018 at 11:16:49 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#252254: Aug 15th 2018 at 8:24:47 PM

[up][up][up]I mean, that really doesn't change anything I said. I never said anything about America being exceptional.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 15th 2018 at 11:03:51 AM

CookingCat Since: Jul, 2018
#252255: Aug 15th 2018 at 8:52:17 PM

Hell, the main reason America became the only remaining Superpower and "exceptional" is because Europe and Asia got fucked up by the World Wars. Now that they have recovered from them, America is falling behind in many aspects.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252256: Aug 15th 2018 at 8:55:37 PM

And were thwarted every step of the way.

I worry that attitude dismisses the amazing accomplishments African Americans have done in spite of it all.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#252257: Aug 15th 2018 at 9:15:26 PM

^Acknowledging that every institution and most of the US's history has been and still is stacked heavily against African-Americans doesn't invalidate the achievements of the greats, it makes them even more triumphant.

You don't say "yeah, he climbed the mountain, but it was really tall, so that kind of diminishes the achievement".

It's been fun.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252258: Aug 15th 2018 at 9:38:16 PM

It's more like "yeah he climbed the really tall mountain while people were throwing rocks at him and trying to cut his ropes." Making it both more impressive and really depressing.

Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:37:57 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#252259: Aug 15th 2018 at 10:03:33 PM

I worry that attitude dismisses the amazing accomplishments African Americans have done in spite of it all.

The accomplishments of my people despite America's institutional racism do not erase the innumerable attempts - the vast majority of them successful, and ongoing - to keep them poor and uneducated.

Frankly, you're getting uncomfortably close to "bootstraps" territory.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 15th 2018 at 1:04:33 PM

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252260: Aug 15th 2018 at 10:08:53 PM

It's completely valid to point out that minorities in the USA face a lot of obstacles due to being minorities, both systemic and personal. That in no way diminishes the accomplishments of minorities. If anything, we should be pointing out the systemic problems more — we've been ignoring them for far too long.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Blueeyedrat Since: Oct, 2010
#252261: Aug 15th 2018 at 10:17:34 PM

Yeah, it's more of "overcoming that hurdle was a great achievement, but that hurdle still never should've been there to begin with".

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#252262: Aug 15th 2018 at 10:19:42 PM

You have to keep in mind that the American Dream being a dream does not diminish its value. It's an American vision, not of today, but of tomorrow-that we should be working toward a society wherein hard work and merit lead to upward mobility.

America has yet to pull it off, and probably will never fully realize it. However, the vision itself, and the task of working toward, has value.

Leviticus 19:34
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#252263: Aug 15th 2018 at 10:20:20 PM

Honestly Charles Phipps, it's kind of weird these kinds of things keep turning into debates with you, especially when I honestly don't think you mean for them to.

Maybe work on letting things go quicker.

[up]That's basically my take, with the caveat that there's nothing uniquely "American" about it. Like, every country has people in it working to make it better, despite facing terrible issues, often issues that in a just world wouldn't exist. But that's not our world.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 15th 2018 at 12:21:19 PM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#252264: Aug 15th 2018 at 10:26:17 PM

@M84: It’s naive to say we here; the American state and public already regards us as second class citizens (who have the distinct “privilege” of being less regularly mistreated than African Americans or Latinos), and with tensions with China likely heading towards a new sustained Cold War we’re already seeing the return of thinly veiled Yellow Peril rhetoric (thanks Trump), and I expect it will only get uglier from here unless China ends up flaming out like Japan ultimately did.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2018 at 1:55:14 PM

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#252265: Aug 15th 2018 at 11:16:49 PM

I find it truly sad the way the US tends to latch on to percieved enermies from within and without to justify excluding its own citizens from the government process. It hurts me personally becuase I have family there, and they deserve a chance at progress that many in my family didn't truly have here.

On to other topics, has Omarosa released the full audiobook of Trump singing nigga by gansgta rap? Or is it still just a threat?

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#252266: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:09:07 AM

Who cares? Honestly, everyone already knows that Trump is a racist, and those who refuse to see it won't change their mind no matter how many tapes turn up.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252267: Aug 16th 2018 at 12:14:57 AM

They won't change their minds, but it would at least be interesting (in a Bile Fascination way) to see them try to excuse Trump outright using racial slurs.

Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2018 at 3:14:37 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#252268: Aug 16th 2018 at 1:55:21 AM

I agree with Protagonist - the American Dream is valuable as an ideal to work for, to keep in mind when you're governing. If we're failing to live up to it, then we have something to work back towards.

To me, Ellis Island is sacred ground, for all its failings. If we can get back to the days when we accepted 98% of everyone who ended up on Ellis Island, that'd be awesome - even if it's not a goal we can get through the current political climate, it's still a vision to fight for. Same with the diamond-shaped society and the ridiculously prosperous middle class of the '50s, only this time we should open that middle class up to all races.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#252269: Aug 16th 2018 at 2:04:54 AM

Speaking of which, has the Republicans made any moves on Ellis Island? I can imagine that some might want to desecrate it because of its symbolism (specifically that 98% of immigrants there were accepted at one point).

Edited by MorningStar1337 on Aug 16th 2018 at 5:40:50 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252270: Aug 16th 2018 at 4:57:36 AM

Honestly Charles Phipps, it's kind of weird these kinds of things keep turning into debates with you, especially when I honestly don't think you mean for them to.

It's not a debate, merely a statement of opinion. You can't say factually African Americans haven't been shit on by American society for 200+ years while you should also know those who have succeeded against all odds should be lauded. The issue is whether that means the dream is perverse or not.

You're right, I tend to shoot you my mouth off a lot and get into arguments over trivialities—which I have to work on.

Mind you, I think the fact I'm a (former) Bernie supporter, tepid about Hillary Clinton, underwhelmed by the Democratic Party, pro-rural America, and very much a supporter of institutions like the Electoral College means I get the role of The Complainer Is Always Wrong or Token Evil Teammate here.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 16th 2018 at 5:04:38 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252271: Aug 16th 2018 at 5:01:20 AM

When a dream is out of reach for all but a very few, when the promise is a broken lie used to justify the degradation of poor people, yeah, I’d say it’s perverse.

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252272: Aug 16th 2018 at 5:02:30 AM

Yeah, I disagree.

Which is the nature of it. There's not an attempt by me to debate here, though, just saying that it should be fixed rather than discarded.

But it's really just arguing whether the glass is half-full or mostly empty. Which is semantics really.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 16th 2018 at 5:08:48 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252273: Aug 16th 2018 at 6:24:40 AM

That last part (along with said 40% simply being captured by the corporate interest of the board) is why I would have preferred a move towards expanding worker's ability to organize, bargain, and strike.

I'm honestly not sure if that's more or less of a long shot

If it were just this or union power then you might have a point, but they aren't mutually exclusive.

Democrats can absolutely support more union powers and this. Which together should make things much better.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 16th 2018 at 9:24:20 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#252274: Aug 16th 2018 at 6:50:42 AM

[up]I suppose they can, I just don’t think that that is the right direction to go to counter-act corporate power for reasons that have been stated.

And to be honest, I haven’t heard too many people talking about plans to expand union power and organization, which has got me thinking that Democrats (or really any major political actor) by and large do not see labor action and power as a solution to this problem.

I would like to be proven wrong on that, but Even then I feel it would not be a high priority for most (if not all) candidates.

wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252275: Aug 16th 2018 at 6:59:56 AM

Union organizing has primarily been grassroots, not party. SEIU, Unite Here, National Nurses United, etc, have been very active. A lot of online journalists are trying to unionize too.


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