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wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252226: Aug 15th 2018 at 5:35:55 PM

...it verges rather uncomfortably close to state capitalism when you have government agencies actively directing corporate policy in accordance with state policy.

Uh... that’s literally how laws work? For example, in America, a company can’t fire you for being a woman. They can’t hold your paycheck for a month because you annoyed your boss. They can’t make you work with certain materials without safety gear and training. Etc.

This would just be adding another layer. Want to have a company? Well, then get used to listening to your workers sometimes, and to not polluting a river because it adds $100,000 a year to your profits.

Edited by wisewillow on Aug 15th 2018 at 8:39:49 AM

Reflextion from a post-sanity world (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
#252227: Aug 15th 2018 at 5:37:42 PM

Of course, all the Libertarians and Randroids are going to be screeching at the top of their lungs about how this shits all over The American Dream(tm) and starts us down the slippery slope to Full Communism (cue Scare Chord) and so on and so forth.

Which means it's probably the right way to go.

Someone did tell me life was going to be this way.
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#252228: Aug 15th 2018 at 5:41:09 PM

[up]Honestly, the American Dream is just that. It's a sweet little bedtime story to tell to people to make them think America is truly the land of opportunity. That everyone's made equal and that anyone can do anything if you put your mind to it. That anyone can come here and make it if they just try.

Shame it's all a crock.

Edited by kkhohoho on Aug 15th 2018 at 7:40:53 AM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#252229: Aug 15th 2018 at 5:46:45 PM

On the bright side reform like that will make it that much more of a reality.

The fact that it would enrage the people who due to their privilege or bigotry subscribe to the farcical version is simply another benefit tongue

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 15th 2018 at 8:46:18 AM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#252230: Aug 15th 2018 at 5:55:21 PM

[up][up] Oh, how funny that you say this...

NY Gov. Andrew Cuomo says America 'was never that great'.

Prepare for the select outrage from the right, everyone!

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#252231: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:02:06 PM

The North Carolina GOP is comically terrible.

RainehDaze Nero Fangirl (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
Nero Fangirl
#252232: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:05:11 PM

Certainly, forcing companies that want the benefit of legal personhood to have the accountability of a person isn't stretching much.

Robrecht Your friendly neighbourhood Regent from The Netherlands Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: They can't hide forever. We've got satellites.
Your friendly neighbourhood Regent
#252233: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:10:50 PM

Take this as a plus or a detriment as you see fit based on your own personal politics, but as a Socialist I really like the '40% of the board must be elected by the workers' part of Warren's plan.

Of course, for my preference, it doesn't go quite far enough... But it's at least some step towards giving the workers a measure of control over the means.

Angry gets shit done.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#252234: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:25:42 PM

[up]x4 America is an imaginary land division, that we have arbitrarily decided will be united under a single federal government, located North American continent.

The people and ideas that make up America, on the other hand, are another story entirely.

Edited by megaeliz on Aug 15th 2018 at 9:25:56 AM

archonspeaks Since: Jun, 2013
#252235: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:41:00 PM

[up] The same could be said for most countries. Thats not unique, nor is it a bad thing. Our diversity is what’s made us strong.

They should have sent a poet.
wisewillow She/her Since: May, 2011
She/her
#252236: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:41:26 PM

Hilariously, Andrew Cuomo is a centrist at best, whom many if not most progressives loathe for his crap pro-corporate policies and failure to address police brutality and systemic racism beyond sound bites.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#252237: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:41:54 PM

@wisewillow: The impression I got was that regulators would be appointing additional board members to represent the "interests of workers", which is to say the interests of the state. That's a policy straight out of the PRC, and while it might very well result in a better outcome than the Status Quo, but its decidedly against the Western economic orthodoxy.

If I misread the thrust of this policy and companies would be given a choice of who to appoint from their labor force they'd pick a shill, and privately organized elections would end up being about as democratic as Russia's elections.

This isn't like Europe where labor unions remain a significant political force that can stand up to major corporations, which is arguably a consequence of the EU's soft protectionism which insulates workers against the "race to the bottom"* that's killing organized labor. In the context of the United States there's no way this isn't either toothless or an anti-capitalist policy which basically all western economists (and not just the Austrian-school cooks) will decry as state capitalism.

* A term which is deeply Eurocentric; it's more accurate to call it a leveling of global income and standards of living between the developed and developing world (with the most spectacular example of this being China), which is a good thing from an internationalist perspective.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2018 at 9:49:22 AM

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#252238: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:51:37 PM

State capitalism actually means government ownership of profit-making businesses which are used to fund government services, a la Saudi Arabia (and other petrostates with nationalized oil) or Singapore.

Anyway, I broadly like Warren's ideas, though I worry that it might be tough to get existing corporate entities on board. Yeah, yeah, I know, fuck the companies, their opinion doesn't matter to us, etc. - but if we're imposing this on them from above, we'd better be ready to deal with the pushback. (For example, 40% of directors might be isolated, mocked and ignored by the other 60%.) So all I can say is "good luck on the implementation, you'll need it."

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252239: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:53:41 PM

The American Dream is actually quite real. Given, literally, that prior to society being reorganized that you could not move out of your birth caste.

It's just people have been trying to destroy it ever since.

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#252240: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:54:33 PM

[up][up] That's one of the descriptions of a state capitalist system, but the more common use is the sort of midway point between a planned (socialist) economy and a market economy, and that's the sum of numerous policies rather than something completely binary. Regulator appointed board members is one such policy, and I can't see any other way to actually implement this idea that wouldn't result in shills being appointed by corporations (if they get to choose) or sham elections that can't realistically be monitored (if it's done by internal elections) in non-union shops. (i.e. nearly all of them these days) More to the point, whether it's a state capitalist policy doesn't necessarily mean its "good" or "bad" in terms of its overall outcome, regardless of what Austrian economists and Rand fans say.

[down] Yes, the reality is the American dream only ever existed for white men. That's the big asterix about the United States throughout its history.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2018 at 10:02:25 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#252241: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:55:46 PM

[up][up]America was founded on the backs of slaves and was intended to only profit certain groups of people. Despite what your teachers and all those holiday specials will tell you. Doesn't sound like much of a dream to me.

Edited by kkhohoho on Aug 15th 2018 at 8:55:25 AM

CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#252242: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:59:06 PM

America was founded on the backs of slaves and was intended to only profit certain groups of people. Despite what your teachers and all those holiday specials will tell you. Doesn't sound like much of a dream to me.

According to the period text I've read, those slaves dreamed of freedom and when they got it, did their best to try to find equality and land ownership as well as moving from slavery.

The American Dream is not the property of white people no matter how much they claim. It is a dream of being free from the horrors which afflicted America and Europe before it.

White propaganda attempts to steal the role of minorities and their voice in the past. Like the fact a quarter of cowboys were Hispanic and a quarter were black.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 15th 2018 at 6:59:30 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#252243: Aug 15th 2018 at 6:59:25 PM

[up][up][up][up][up]That last part (along with said 40% simply being captured by the corporate interest of the board) is why I would have preferred a move towards expanding worker's ability to organize, bargain, and strike.

I'm honestly not sure if that's more or less of a long shot.

Edited by Mio on Aug 15th 2018 at 9:59:02 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#252244: Aug 15th 2018 at 7:04:37 PM

[up] Yeah, as it's being presented it's pretty toothless. My initial reading was that it would involve regulators appointing board members to private companies, which could have a very significant effect, though not necessarily a positive one.

One thing we have to come to terms with in trying to get a better deal for laborers is that the influence of multinational corporations has grown to the point that, while they clearly aren't states unto themselves, they have a degree of (dare I say) sovereignty previously unheard of from wholly private entities. In the same way it can be very costly or impossible for a nation to enforce its will on another sovereign nation, many multinationals are simply too big to effectively regulate for anything other than a unified coalition of the world's major markets.

Dealing with their problematic practices is inevitably going to involve a fair amount of diplomacy, either with other major markets (in particular China and to a lesser extent the EU), or directly with the MegaCorps themselves, and while that sounds a bit too Cyberpunk for my tastes, it may be the best way to get a better deal for workers, since getting China, the Untied States, and the EU to agree on any sort of common labor regulation regime is a pipe dream for the foreseeable future, especially since China is currently in a delicate phase of economic development. (transitioning from a middle income country to a developed country)

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2018 at 10:29:19 AM

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#252245: Aug 15th 2018 at 7:10:52 PM

[up][up][up]It is also the dream of being able to get any job you want and make a decent living just by doing your best and giving it your all. Which simply isn't the case.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252246: Aug 15th 2018 at 7:13:00 PM

The problem with calling America a "great" nation is that "greatness" is such a vague term. As I said before, IMHO it's not just a matter of material wealth or military might. If we go by that alone, then yeah, the USA's the greatest.

But the thing is, all of that is just power. And the true measure of greatness is not how much power you have, it's what you do with it.

[up]One of the major flaws of the American Dream of upward mobility is the rising cost of education. The days when someone could work their way up from being a stockboy to a stockbroker are long gone. Instead, we've got tons of student loan debt.

Edited by M84 on Aug 15th 2018 at 10:14:52 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#252247: Aug 15th 2018 at 7:16:36 PM

According to the period text I've read, those slaves dreamed of freedom and when they got it, did their best to try to find equality and land ownership as well as moving from slavery.

And were thwarted every step of the way.

i'm tired, my friend
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#252248: Aug 15th 2018 at 7:17:04 PM

[up][up] Those days were ever bit as mythical as the nebulous "period when America was great" that Trump invokes; the number of genuinely self-made men (and in those days it was exclusively men) in the gilded age were dwarfed by the number of traditional elites who adapted to the changing system and leveraged their existing wealth and privilege to remain on top.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 15th 2018 at 10:16:56 AM

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#252249: Aug 15th 2018 at 7:20:41 PM

Honestly, I've never been super hung up about whether The American Dream was real or not. Life for most humans throughout history was differing degrees of terrible, and on that front we've made tons of stride.

It's too bad that we don't seem to unilaterally move forward in a positive direction in ever area, but that's life. It's why you keep trying.

I say this knowing it probably sounds like a bunch of platitudes or shitty motivational posters, but it's just how I've always viewed things.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#252250: Aug 15th 2018 at 8:04:00 PM

[up][up]I'm speaking more of those people who managed to pay their way through college through menial jobs to make something better of their lives. It was at least a lot easier to do it in the past than it is now, due to the rising cost of education and student debt. It also doesn't help that, while a degree is pretty much required for a lot of high paying jobs, they are far from a guarantee of getting one. The job market's rough.

Edited by M84 on Aug 15th 2018 at 11:04:04 PM

Disgusted, but not surprised

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