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Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#251976: Aug 13th 2018 at 11:46:28 AM

@Spartan: I'm talking about the Anti-GMO*, anti-nuclear power*, anti-vaxxer, and homeopathy people, the same ones alluded to by @M84.

And are these people are a noteworthy bloc of the Democratic Party? Because I am 99% certain that they aren't, if anything they hold sway far more in the Green Party.

With the exception of anti-nuclear power, but that's position common across the populace and can't really be attributed to the Democratic Party in any significant manner.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 13th 2018 at 2:46:00 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#251977: Aug 13th 2018 at 11:50:16 AM

Just a thing here: just because part of the population belive racist thing dosent mean they will transform that into racist action in general, it take quite a leap to do that and the disaster of charlestonville is a proof of that.

Granted is still awfull but is wort to kept in mind.

Ca P: the counter to that is that the more republican play hardball, the less trusted they are for their antic and also they start to drop in making a funcional goverment for overfocus in sabotagint the goverment, which is why Obamacare prevail: the republican cant do shit when they dont have a goverment to tear down.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#251978: Aug 13th 2018 at 11:50:33 AM

Hawaii teachers union back opponent of Tulsi Gabbard

I have to say this is wonderful news, for those who are unaware Tulsi Gabbard is the Democrat Representative from Hawaii and she's a terrible person.

The Democratic Party would do well without her.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 13th 2018 at 2:50:33 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#251979: Aug 13th 2018 at 11:51:45 AM

That reminds me, is there anything new on that Republican Hawaii state(?) congresswoman that changed to Democrat in the wake of Trump?

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 13th 2018 at 12:53:46 PM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251980: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:00:50 PM

@Spartan: When it comes to GMO, both parties are close to equally bad (within 5% of each other at 63% and 59% opposition respectively), and there's a 23% partisan gap in favor of the GOP on nuclear power. Vaccination has majority support among both parties, but the democrats are marginally worse with 12% of liberals opposed versus 10% of conservatives.

Here's a somewhat old source that outlines the scope of the problem.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 13th 2018 at 3:03:03 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#251981: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:03:00 PM

[up]I don't see how you can reasonably blame the party just because a minority of their voters are unreasonable, if 12% oppose vaccinations then 88% support them.

Unless you can show me some anti-vaccination policy consensus then I don't think it's fair to blame the party for some anti-science views amongst the voting population.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 13th 2018 at 3:02:45 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251982: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:12:16 PM

[up] I'm not blaming the party, just countering the claim that the Democratic party is better on scientific issues; they're better on the singular most pressing scientific issue of our time (climate change), but overall the difference isn't nearly as vast as people on the center-left like to tell themselves.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#251983: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:13:34 PM

If it's overall better than the Republicans', it's good enough to be going on with.

Edited by sgamer82 on Aug 13th 2018 at 1:15:51 PM

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#251984: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:14:03 PM

[up][up]Except that doesn't counter the claim in the slightest, just because a somewhat large minority supports anti-science views does not mean that the party does.

Unless you can demonstrate that the party has ever put policy in place that reflect those views you cannot accurately suggest any equivalence with the Republicans.

[up]I completely disagree, less awful is not good enough and it's not even true in this case. We shouldn't tolerate anti-science views just because the Republicans are bad, and thankfully we don't have to.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Aug 13th 2018 at 3:20:07 PM

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251985: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:20:49 PM

[up] And I never claimed the majority of the Democratic party was (globally) anti-science.

I originally responded to:

I mean, everyone thinks their side makes sense otherwise they wouldn't be on that side.

It's just that when it comes to actual proof our side is objectively right much more often. But then comes the issue of them just rejecting evidence that goes against their point.

Which is also a very human thing that everyone does to some extent, everyone has a blind spot somewhere, but the right leans on it much more.

with the following:

@LSBK: Democrats ignore evidence almost as reliably as the GOP when it's inconvenient for them. This is particular true when it comes to economics*, and also crops up in numerous STEM fields (other than climate science) with the environmentalist wing of the party.

When you look at the actual numbers, anti-science views are indeed more prevalent among Republicans, that much is true, but the difference isn't huge on most issues.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 13th 2018 at 3:23:31 PM

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#251986: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:23:46 PM

Probably a longshot, but I really hope Gabbard goes down in flames. There is zero reason why the Democrats should put up with someone with such divergent and repugnant policies in a state that Blue.

Frankly; she's worse than any Blue Dog.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#251987: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:26:36 PM

[up][up]Except they were talking about the parties and their policy, obviously Democratic voters have some of the same cognitive errors that Republicans do (it comes with being human unfortunately) but that doesn't mean our side isn't objectively more correct then the Republicans.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#251988: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:27:34 PM

FBI agent Peter Strzok fired over anti-Trump texts

Isn't it kind of remarkable that he kept his job for so long in the face of conservative rage? Then again, it was probably inevitable this would happen.

Not so remarkable at all. They needed to keep him on the hook for as long as they could so that they could use his presence to discredit the Department of Justice, FBI, and Mueller investigation.

"FBI Conspires Against Trump" was a more useful headline than "Ex-FBI Agent Fired for Denigrating Trump". Mueller recognized this same fact, which was why he expelled Strzok from his team as quickly as possible.

But that narrative's run its course and they've milked all they could get out of Strzok, so now it's time for him to go.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Aug 13th 2018 at 1:27:43 PM

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Larkmarn Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Hello, I love you
#251989: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:28:36 PM

Sadly, it isn't; Public Employees can not make statements that conflict with their respective departments and duties, courtesy of Garcetti v. Caballos. Strozk, being a leading member of the FBI, wouldn't have been allowed to make comments like these against any Political Candidate, even if they were on trial, as it shows bias against them.

Not that I don't support Strozk and wish him the best, it's just that (sadly) he has no Constitutional Ground to stand on, especially with our current Supreme Court...

Civil servants absolutely still have First Amendment rights. The issue is that they can't necessarily express them as part of their job.

These were private texts from one citizen to another. Garcetti v. Caballos is irrelevant. If they had publicly made statements as FBI agents then it would be relevant, but they still have rights as private citizens.

Edited by Larkmarn on Aug 13th 2018 at 3:32:17 PM

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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251990: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:33:59 PM

@Fourthspartan56: I was talking about the voters and the party as an overall unit, because the anti-scientific beliefs held by both parties' voters have real-world consequences.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#251991: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:37:37 PM

[up]Demonstrate those real world consequences, the Republican Party has high levels of climate change denialism in their party and as such they will push legislation that opposes or does nothing to stop climate change.

Show that the Democratic Party does the same thing regarding vaccinations and you might have a point, but they don't because as we've demonstrated only a minority of the voter base actually believes that.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#251992: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:41:16 PM

The party as an overall unit isn’t ignoring science though (outside of nuclear), a disturbing number of individual voters within it might, but elected officials and the party policy wonks aren’t.

There’s the difference between The Party (the institutions that legislates and provides policy) and the voters who make up the party (where yes a disturbing large percentage do ignore science).

Democratic voters might ignore science when they feel like it, but that doesn’t translate into the Democratic Party ignoring science when it feels like it.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251993: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:52:52 PM

[up], [up][up] I don't see why you're ignoring the stance on nuclear power and how it tends to bleed through to lawmakers, which most recently resulted in the closure of the largest operating nuclear power plant in New York State with no plans to replace it. That's not as catastrophic as Republican lawmakers ignoring Climate research, but over the years anti-nuclear sentiment (which is concentrated on the left) has been a serious drag on efforts to fund research into making nuclear power more effective and economically competitive versus fossil fuels (and making better use of the waste), which could have sidestepped the whole issue of climate change before it become a crisis.

[down] From that perspective climate science is the exception to the rule for the GOP; there's around a 30%-ish partisan difference in attitudes between the median voters in each parties there compared to a 23% difference on nuclear power. On most other hard science issues the parties are about the same. 7% is a sizable difference, and supports the claim that Republicans are somewhat more anti-science than Democrats, but it's not nearly as huge as people on the left claim.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 13th 2018 at 4:20:07 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#251994: Aug 13th 2018 at 12:54:52 PM

I'm taking the point to simply be that nuclear power of the exception to the rule.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#251995: Aug 13th 2018 at 1:28:51 PM

Except the Republicans do anti-science leglistlation on a lot more things than just climate change.

You’re laser focusing the percentage of Party voters who are anti-science, as opposed to what matters, the percentage of legislation and policy that is anti-science.

Republican voters are about as anti-science as democratic voters, but the Republican Party is dramatically more anti-science than the Democratic Party.

I’m putting nuclear aside becuse it’s the one case of the Democratic Party being anti-science, it’s also a point where I’ve been vocal about my disagreement with many on the left.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 13th 2018 at 8:29:47 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#251996: Aug 13th 2018 at 1:32:14 PM

What is the argument against nuclear power exactly?

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#251997: Aug 13th 2018 at 1:34:28 PM

Nukes are bad and scary and bad

Oh really when?
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#251998: Aug 13th 2018 at 1:34:42 PM

It revolves around the perception that its unsafe. If corners aren't cut, then it is one of the safest forms of power generation around.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#251999: Aug 13th 2018 at 1:36:37 PM

That it’s scary and glowing.

Nuclear fear does have a legitimate place in policy, it’s why nuclear power is so safe and does so little damage to the environment in the form of emissions. However it’s massivly overblown to the point where nuclear plants can’t be constructed despite them being safe, reliable and non-damaging in the form of emissions (with newer ones even being able to reuse nuclear waste).

Germany shut down all its nuclear plants a few years back out of nuclear hysteria, because they’d rather torch the environment with natural gas than run nuclear planets after a single nuclear plant of a different type broke down in a controlled manner after being hit by an earthquake and tsunami, on the other side of the planet.

Edited by Silasw on Aug 13th 2018 at 8:37:10 AM

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#252000: Aug 13th 2018 at 1:40:45 PM

The big problems with nuclear power are roughly as follows:

  • Lots of toxic waste that is terrifically hard to dispose of safely.
    • Newer designs mitigate this.
    • NIMBY-ism is seriously affecting the ability to find safe disposal sites.
  • The risk of serious catastrophe from natural disasters or sabotage.
    • Again, modern designs are available to mitigate the risk.
  • Older design plants reaching the end of their useful lifespan without replacements.
    • Due to the general animus against nuclear power, getting newer, safer designs built to replace old ones is really hard.

In a nutshell, legitimate fears about the problems of older designs are causing resistance to the idea of building better ones.

Edited by Fighteer on Aug 13th 2018 at 4:41:00 AM

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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