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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251901: Aug 12th 2018 at 8:23:36 PM

The Democrats are ineffectual as a party, there's basically no denying that, but it's a direct consequence of trying to adhere to the norms and conventions of American democracy in a political environment where the GOP is increasingly embracing constitutional hardball, and profiting immensely from it. There's a lot more that could be done, and honestly as time goes on I'm (reluctantly) beginning to wonder if it might be the least horrible in a collection of some truly ugly future , but once that bridge is crossed there's no clear way to walk things back and deescalate, and it would likely end with America being transformed into a de-facto single party state or suffering a wholesale collapse of constitutional order.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 12th 2018 at 11:39:48 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#251902: Aug 12th 2018 at 8:44:16 PM

The Democrats are ineffectual as a party, there's basically no denying that
Didn't, like, half the last page do exactly that?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251903: Aug 12th 2018 at 8:53:41 PM

[up] Yes, and to be blunt, they're wrong. Irrespective of how the midterms and 2020 turn out, in another 4-8 years the GOP will regain their lost offices, likely more radical than ever even if they're touting "moderate" rhetoric and making empty promises of compromise, and whatever the Democratic party has accomplished in the intermittent window will be rolled back and bastardized alongside a host of new barriers being thrown up to make it harder for Democrats to return to power. I can't see how that's not going to be the political reality going forwards.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 12th 2018 at 11:57:46 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#251904: Aug 12th 2018 at 8:57:29 PM

To me, this talk of people’s perceptions of the parties, stops us from seeing bigger underlying systems that helped create these problems.

For example, one of the (many) problems with our legislature, and a big source of potential public corruption, is that congressmembers are not required to recuse themselves from a vote or committee, if they have a financial or otherwise conflict of interest.

That’s just one example, and there are hundreds of others.

Edited by megaeliz on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:06:41 PM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#251905: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:06:31 PM

Irrespective of how the midterms and 2020 turn out, in another 4-8 years the GOP will regain their lost offices

And you know this how? A political crystal ball, maybe?

it's a direct consequence of trying to adhere to the norms and conventions of American democracy in a political environment where the GOP is increasingly embracing constitutional hardball, and profiting immensely from it.

Democrats have been playing constitutional hardball, as was brought up with the tax bill. What the GOP has been doing is exploiting every loophole in the book, changing the rules so whatever BS trick they pull to get their legislation passed isn't technically illegal, and in some cases just breaking the law anyway and frequently getting away with it. As we've discussed last page, Dems have a bad enough reputation without stooping to the GOP's level.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:10:54 PM

i'm tired, my friend
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#251906: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:12:06 PM

It depends on how badly things go for the GOP. I hope the consequences come hard and fast.

Do not obey in advance.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251907: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:16:20 PM

[up][up] An understanding of how the US political system currently seems to works, and an extrapolation of this forwards into the near future. I'm far from the only person to have come to this conclusion; for a popular example see this rather by Matthew Yglesias. To make a long story short, as it currently operates, control of the federal government inexorably pivots between the two major parties on a regular basis even when one of them is running a total dumpster fire of a candidate like Trump. This arrangement is, going off of the fates of similarly designed Presidential democracies in Latin America, quite fragile, and depends on unwritten norms of forebearance that aren't present in the other countries that tried to emulate the American political system. However, if one or both party goes of the rails and those norms go out the window, the whole system falls apart, and the equilibrium shifts decidedly in their favor; the opposition party has the option of either being sidelined or responding in kind, which is the juncture we're at right now.

Also no, Democrats have no been playing hardball on the same level as the GOP. Very few people are suggesting packing the supreme court, gerrymandering electoral districts, and breaking up Democratic strongholds into multiple states to give the party an electoral advantage.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:17:34 PM

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#251908: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:17:40 PM

That juncture sounds awfully binary.

Do not obey in advance.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251909: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:18:58 PM

[up] Our whole political system is basically a binary A/B choice in contrast to the more thoughtfully designed political systems in Europe that were made with the benefit of hindsight. But as for your question, it's not necessarily all or nothing, but given the state of the GOP I expect their response to more forceful politics from the Democratic party will be more escalation on their part (and that has indeed been the case over the past 2 years, as efforts to oppose the Trump administration have ramped up, the GOP has circled the wagons and trampled on even more of the political norms); it's very difficult to walk back from that kind of escalation when you don't trust your opponent to give you the time of day.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:22:18 PM

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#251910: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:24:51 PM

I see.

I suspect that the escalation may cost the GOP big time in the end. I hope it does.

Do not obey in advance.
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#251911: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:28:02 PM

The question is, what will be left by the time it does?

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#251912: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:28:46 PM

[up][up] My fear is that it's going to have the opposite effect of ensuring they retain a disproportionate amount of influence on governance even with dwindling numbers of people actually support them and their policies. In fact as far as we can tell, that's the actual game plan for the GOP now that attempts to expand their coalition have been thoroughly rebuffed; throwing up as many structural barriers and stacking the deck as much as possible in order to maintain power in the face of demographic trends that are decidedly against them.

Edited by CaptainCapsase on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:29:09 PM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#251913: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:36:21 PM

Also no, Democrats have no been playing hardball on the same level as the GOP. Very few people are suggesting packing the supreme court, gerrymandering electoral districts, and breaking up Democratic strongholds into multiple states to give the party an electoral advantage.

Rigging the system =/= playing hardball.

And like I keep saying, a significant amount of people already think Dems are just as bad as Rs without them resorting to the GOP's tactics. Apparently, you think Dems should prove them right. We do not need Democrats invoking Then Let Me Be Evil, especially considering how much mobilizing has had to be done just to convince people on the left to vote. Democrats "playing hardball" would undo all of that hard work in the snap of a finger.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:40:16 PM

i'm tired, my friend
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#251914: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:40:37 PM

... I don't think the reasons people consider the Democrats to be almost as bad as the Republicans have anything to do with dirty political tactics or lack thereof.

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#251915: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:43:45 PM

[up]What I'm saying is, it wouldn't help; in fact, it'd just make the problem worse. What is so hard to understand about this?

i'm tired, my friend
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#251916: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:46:35 PM

Sorry, I have the memory of a goldfish and I'm running low on energy.

That said, Republicans have gone so low that Democrats could play a LOT dirtier and still come out looking better, at least if the point that it's a Godzilla Threshold kind of response is emphasised.

Edited by TroperOnAStickV2 on Aug 12th 2018 at 12:50:01 PM

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#251917: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:49:18 PM

There's a reason "Crooked Hillary" and "Shillary" became memes that even left-leaning people fell for hook, line, and sinker.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#251918: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:52:11 PM

And the thrust behind THOSE memes has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm talking about.

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#251919: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:53:07 PM

There's a reason "Crooked Hillary" and "Shillary" became memes that even left-leaning people fell for hook, line, and sinker.

That people genuinely don't like Hillary Clinton or her politics but still voted for her over Trump?

Mind you, the Democrats should be much nastier and much angrier. Because the things being done are things to be angry and nasty about.

And like I keep saying, a significant amount of people already think Dems are just as bad as Rs without them resorting to the GOP's tactics. Apparently, you think Dems should prove them right. We do not need Democrats invoking Then Let Me Be Evil, especially considering how much mobilizing has had to be done just to convince people on the left to vote. Democrats "playing hardball" would undo all of that hard work in the snap of a finger.

Let me deconstruct this argument.

1. People who hate the Democrats hate them because of Republican propaganda.

2. A not insignificant number of people think they're running a pedophile ring.

3. Democrats ignore this versus pointing out Donald Trump was a frequent flier on the private jet of an actual pedophile slave trader. *

4. Pointing out just what vile nasty pieces of shit the GOP contain would be dirty politics and yet very much the truth.

  • So was Bill Clinton—and Donald points that out without a shred of hypocrisy.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 12th 2018 at 9:58:34 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#251920: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:56:00 PM

I don't like the idea of the Democrats playing as dirty as the Republicans, though in my case it's less for the reasons already mentioned and more that I think unchecked extremism in any form is ultimately a destructive thing and this would just make the Democratic Party the next victim.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#251921: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:56:58 PM

And it wouldn't help either. The Democratic Party trying to fight at the level of the GOP would end in failure. The GOP have had a lot more practice at it.

[up]One of the Democratic Party's positive traits is that it so far has managed to keep extremists from gaining a foothold in the party. So far.

Edited by M84 on Aug 13th 2018 at 12:57:47 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#251922: Aug 12th 2018 at 9:57:51 PM

I don't want the Democrats to be evil.

I want the Democrats to stop treating the Republicans like they aren't.

They're not Worthy Opponent or Noble Demon types.

They're scum and out to Kill the Poor.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 12th 2018 at 9:57:43 AM

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.
TroperOnAStickV2 Call me Stick from Redneck country Since: Dec, 2009 Relationship Status: is commanded to— WANK!
Call me Stick
#251923: Aug 12th 2018 at 10:00:27 PM

[up] Which is EXACTLY my point.

Hopefully I'll feel confident to change my avatar off this scumbag soon. Apologies to any scumbags I insulted.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#251924: Aug 12th 2018 at 10:04:04 PM

Except there are still plenty of voters in the USA electorate who remain uninformed enough that they genuinely think both parties are equally bad enough that they either did not vote at all in 2016 or voted for Trump since he wasn't a career politician and thus somehow was "above" the whole system.

Disgusted, but not surprised
CharlesPhipps Since: Jan, 2001
#251925: Aug 12th 2018 at 10:07:42 PM

Basically, yes, that is the problem in a nutshell.

The Democrats are not letting the public know just how awful and vile the Republican party has become and they're unwittingly letting the narrative be controlled by them.

We need less, "The Republicans' plans will not benefit you."

And more, "The Republicans want to kill your grandmother and they will."

Author of The Rules of Supervillainy, Cthulhu Armageddon, and United States of Monsters.

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