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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Ingonyama Since: Jan, 2001
#235951: Mar 21st 2018 at 9:13:25 PM

You can't just list all of those reasons and then go "but it still doesn't matter". What is described here would basically be obstruction for obstruction's sake which is not something that the Dems should be doing. And there are definitely going to be people who will be upset for them not doing it. Those people should not be indulged.

Sorry to bring this back up again, but since I was directly addressed and I feel it's important to answer this.

First, I don't actually agree with those statements I made—that was me parroting what the replies to that tweet I linked to were saying, I actually found the reasons given for voting for him quite reasonable and acceptable. The reason I paraphrased those replies is because I am concerned that there are people who do think this, and wanted you all to know such views exist. Sorry for not making this clear, I was very tired when I posted that and not thinking clearly.

And secondly, while you're right we shouldn't indulge such people, at the same time, can we really afford to alienate them? I mean, a number of good points were made by other tropers that the Democrats are in a bad situation where on the one hand no matter what they do (including nothing) someone will get pissed at them, but on the other hand we can't afford to undermine unity or lose votes.

Add to this the fact that while we probably can't get DACA passed right now, if the Dreamers do get deported it won't just be as simple as "they can come back later and become legal citizens then" (even aside from the citizenship laws needing to be changed for that, there's the fact the Dreamers have only known the US, don't know the nations/cultures/languages they'd be sent back to, and could suffer in numerous ways while there)...well, you can see why I'd think trying for DACA again is a good idea.

That said, I am deeply worried about Mueller, and that the Republicans won't do anything when he is fired...but considering those lukewarm responses from the Senators, and the fact those bills are still sitting there, unaddressed, I can't help wondering if even trying to attach a rider to the omnibus will do any good. The Republicans won't care if there's a shutdown over it, and it'd allow them to make more histrionic accusations about the Democrats being obsessed with a "witch hunt".

So...I don't know what to do. All I can say is, I'm still worried this will all lead to more division among the voters when we can't afford it. :(

@ archonspeaks re: the fabricated BLM/Nation of Islam connection—also keep in mind that we know the Russian propaganda leading up to (and after) the 2016 election created a number of fake groups (including with Facebook pages) to stir up division and chaos here, among which specifically were fake BLM groups/pages. I wouldn't be surprised if the one you mention from that article is one of the fakes.

And speaking of nominees I actually was okay with the Dems voting for, I am glad to see that Wray continues to be a competent, non-partisan, ethical, and fair FBI director, and I love seeing him turn out to be a thorn in Trump's side.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235952: Mar 21st 2018 at 9:31:10 PM

[up] It's just so satisfying that Trump's appointee to the agency he has put under constant assault on from nearly the beginning of his presidency, turned out to be on that agency's side, and absolutely refuses to take any of Trump's crap.

Especially when you consider how horrible a lot his other appointees have been, such as Zinke, and Pruitt.

edited 21st Mar '18 9:39:54 PM by megaeliz

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#235953: Mar 21st 2018 at 9:33:32 PM

First, I don't actually agree with those statements I made—that was me parroting what the replies to that tweet I linked to were saying, I actually found the reasons given for voting for him quite reasonable and acceptable. The reason I paraphrased those replies is because I am concerned that there are people who do think this, and wanted you all to know such views exist. Sorry for not making this clear, I was very tired when I posted that and not thinking clearly.
That's more reasonable, still there are always people who think anything and I don't see any evidence they're a statistically significant number of people. Of course doesn't mean we shouldn't keep an eye on them but all the same the Senators who voted for it were a minority (a admittedly large one) and Schumer disavowed the bill, so frankly I don't think it's likely to be a serious issue (though I suppose those are famous last words tongue).

And secondly, while you're right we shouldn't indulge such people, at the same time, can we really afford to alienate them? I mean, a number of good points were made by other tropers that the Democrats are in a bad situation where on the one hand no matter what they do (including nothing) someone will get pissed at them, but on the other hand we can't afford to undermine unity or lose votes.
Not a bad point but I think it's preemptive to assume that they're a significant bloc, they could be but right now I don't see any reason for undue concern.

Add to this the fact that while we probably can't get DACA passed right now, if the Dreamers do get deported it won't just be as simple as "they can come back later and become legal citizens then" (even aside from the citizenship laws needing to be changed for that, there's the fact the Dreamers have only known the US, don't know the nations/cultures/languages they'd be sent back to, and could suffer in numerous ways while there)...well, you can see why I'd think trying for DACA again is a good idea.
Maybe, but IIRC ICE's backlog is rather extensive so it should be possible to delay it until the midterms.

That said, I am deeply worried about Mueller, and that the Republicans won't do anything when he is fired...but considering those lukewarm responses from the Senators, and the fact those bills are still sitting there, unaddressed, I can't help wondering if even trying to attach a rider to the omnibus will do any good. The Republicans won't care if there's a shutdown over it, and it'd allow them to make more histrionic accusations about the Democrats being obsessed with a "witch hunt".
As far as I see it there are two most likely reactions to Mueller's firing.

1) Either enough individual Republicans deflect to allow him to be appointed as independent counselor, this is bad for the Republicans as a whole because they'd probably oppose it and is very bad for Trump.

2) Not enough of them do and Mueller is fried, this is very bad for the Republicans and Trump. The damage this could cause them electorally would be... incalculable. This would make the Comey firing a minor disturbance (and don't forget that was what led to Mueller being appointed in the first place).

Notice that neither of those results involve the Republicans and/or Trump skipping merrily off into the sunset, that simply is not going to happen.

So...I don't know what to do. All I can say is, I'm still worried this will all lead to more division among the voters when we can't afford it. :(
I commend you on your vigilance but this is not necessary, all evidence points strongly to a united and enthusiastic Democratic base and a few legitimate concerns will not change that. Fundamentally the universe does not care for good or evil so the fact that all evidence points towards good things coming (if we all work for it) should be encouraging grin

edited 21st Mar '18 9:34:08 PM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#235954: Mar 21st 2018 at 9:48:53 PM

TBH, it's actually kind of encouraging to me that the Democratic Party is even having these kinds of debates. The reason these debates exist is because the Democratic Party as a whole cares about all of these things. They want the government to be running and its employees paid. They want to protect Dreamers. They want to keep the useless money sink monument to xenophobic bigotry that is the wall from being built. The GOP? They don't give a shit about any of those things — all they care about is their own power.

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235955: Mar 21st 2018 at 9:57:57 PM

[up] Agreed. This shows that we actually stand for something, and forces us to hammer out policy and consensus on things we may broadly agree about, but may differ in the details.

Democrats are also the only ones who seem to care that a foreign actor used Dezinformatsiya Warfare, to interfere in our democracy, as well as the democracies of our allies, and continues to engage in these activities, along with other forms of cyber warfare.

edited 21st Mar '18 10:03:32 PM by megaeliz

TheWildWestPyro from Seattle, WA Since: Sep, 2012 Relationship Status: Healthy, deeply-felt respect for this here Shotgun
#235956: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:02:02 PM

I like to say that most of the sane conservatives have left the GOP and the Republicans for the Democrats.

Now all that's left in the Republican party are the fundies, the NRA wackos, the bigots, the fascist sympathizers, the neo-Nazis and the nutters accepting Russian money. There's half a handful of sane Republicans, but they don't do much.

edited 21st Mar '18 10:02:42 PM by TheWildWestPyro

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#235957: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:05:48 PM

[up] Sane conservatives have either joined the Democratic Party or just settled for being "Independent". Because I guess for a lot of them actually putting that "D" next to their name is too much.

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235958: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:06:46 PM

One part of the GOP Constituency that might be overlooked, in the less vocal, more conservative leaning folk who vote GOP out of habit, and might be convinced to flip if you do it right.

edited 21st Mar '18 10:09:08 PM by megaeliz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#235959: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:09:07 PM

[up] That said...they developed that habit for a reason. And old habits die hard.

I'm reminded of a Daily Show segment I saw in 2016 that had a clip interviewing one old lady who outright said she didn't care how bad Trump was — he was the Republican candidate and that's all that mattered to her.

edited 21st Mar '18 10:10:25 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235960: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:11:34 PM

[up] One thing I've often found is they either aren't that interested in Politics, or just honestly don't know about, like for example, the fact that every Intelligence Agency has said that Russia Interfered in our election.

When I showed that DNI report to my Aunt and Uncle, they were surprised, because they thought that was unconfirmed. I answered their questions factually, and let the evidence do the talking. I'm not sure if I convinced them, but I think I got through.

edited 21st Mar '18 10:43:05 PM by megaeliz

Ingonyama Since: Jan, 2001
#235961: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:33:22 PM

@ Fourthspartan: That was...encouraging, and helpful, thank you. I am still worried, because I think we all need to be and cannot become complacent. And I'd note that your scenario re: Mueller where he does get fired depends on the voters I just mentioned being among those who would be so furious over the firing they'd set everything aside to punish the Republicans with their votes, which is...not guaranteed by any means. But if you are right and their numbers are small enough, and especially if we GOTV in huge numbers for everyone else who is unequivocally on our side, then hopefully this Vocal Minority won't give us a repeat of 2016 by sitting out the election or voting for third party candidates.

It's so exhausting, trying to keep up with everything, be aware, lend my voice in the little ways and places I can, and not be overwhelmed by despair, anger, or worry, while at the same time not shutting everything out and assuming/hoping it'll all be okay somehow. Thanks for the small lights you all bring.

Speaking of, I didn't even think of it that way re: the Democrats. Yes, we'd all love it much better if they could all unite in a single solid bloc behind all the things the party stands for and never vote the wrong way...but the fact that those who for various reasons don't agree still are willing to have calm, reasonable debates about these issues does indeed show they believe the issues are real and matter, and that's something to instill hope. grin

[up]Wow, congrats!

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235962: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:43:15 PM

And the AP just reported that apparently Cambridge Analytica has ties to Erik Prince of Darkness and All That Is Unholy.

Company filings show that Trump-affiliated data-mining firm Cambridge Analytica has a link to a Chinese security and logistics company run by Erik Prince, the former mercenary who founded private military company Blackwater.

British corporate records show that Alexander Nix, the suspended chief executive of Cambridge Analytica, is also director of a company called Emerdata Ltd. that was incorporated in August 2017.

Other Emerdata directors include people associated with Cambridge Analytica, along with Johnson Ko Chun Shun, who was appointed in January.

Ko is also deputy chairman of Hong Kong-based Frontier Services Group, whose chairman is Prince.

FSG has attracted attention because of concerns Prince plans to provide special forces veterans to assist Chinese companies investing in risky locations overseas.

China’s biggest state-owned company, Citic, is a major FSG shareholder.

edited 21st Mar '18 11:06:51 PM by megaeliz

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#235963: Mar 21st 2018 at 10:58:40 PM

Overall Democratic turnout is up throughout Illinois, especially compared to the previous two midterms.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/03/21/politics/democrat-high-turnout-illinois/index.html

Remember, as 538 pointed out last week, its not just a polling advantage but an enthusiasm gap that's helping the Dems. A voter that supports you in a poll but doesn't vote...well just ask Clinton how useful they are.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#235964: Mar 21st 2018 at 11:51:54 PM

With Muller there’s going to be a consideration of if the Dems should limit Trump there, as we’ve discussed Muller has backups and the FBI alongside the Grand Jury will still function without him. So should the Dems really protect Trump from himself?

There’s at least an argument to be made that Trump should be allowed the power to fire Muller, and when he does it the Dems should respond both by reappointing him but also by reaping the political capital that comes with it.

I know people think that Trump supporters won’t desert him over a Muller firing, but his approval raiting did drop when he fired Comey, this would be that but bigger, sure the hardcore base won’t care, but (even though it makes no sense logically) there are Trump supporters who’d view the firing of Muller as bad and might switch over it.

The idea would be to let Trump fire Muller if he wants, ride the outrage over that to a midterm win that takes both the House and Senate, than reappoint Muller after the midterms.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235965: Mar 22nd 2018 at 4:58:44 AM

[up] That just sounds risky. Since Trump is nothing if not incredibly transparent, and given how hostile Trump has been towards his investigation, I'm sure he's been putting together a contingency plan for a while now, but I'd rather not find out.

Trump ignoring the fact Mueller's team reads his tweets - and fully aware of his paranoid state and potential actions - is not the brightest strategy, then again it's Trump

edited 22nd Mar '18 5:06:36 AM by megaeliz

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#235966: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:04:24 AM

I am not particularly familiar with the option they have, but I do know that I don't like the notion of them making a special prosecutor untouchable. Just because something looks like a smart movie in the current situation, it doesn't mean that we should just ignore possible problems with this in the future. But if there is a way to put something to paper just for this specific situation, yeah, maybe a good idea....on the other hand in order to put something to paper you need pretty much the same power you would need to simply impeach Trump. So either congress works, in which case nothing of the kind is needed, or it doesn't, in which case it would be useless or would never go through anyway. Actually less than useless, outright dangerous, because it would either proof that yes the Congress can do what everyone assumed it can do all along, or it would demonstrate that nope, there isn't enough unity for them to do their damned job.

In any case, for once this is not the job of the democrats. The republicans have to show some spine and take the lead here. At least until the midterms.

edited 22nd Mar '18 5:06:16 AM by Swanpride

thok That's Dr. Title, thank you! (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Non-Canon
That's Dr. Title, thank you!
#235967: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:08:14 AM

[up][up][up] Any plan that depends on taking control of the Senate is risky, just given how bad the electoral map is. Even in the best case scenario of winning every seat (which requires doing things like beating Mitt Romney in Utah and winning two seats in Mississippi), the Dems + independents would only control 58 Senate seats, and would need some Republican help to deal with vetoes, filibusters, and the eventual impeachment vote.

edited 22nd Mar '18 5:08:50 AM by thok

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235968: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:11:17 AM

Satire, but too funny to not share, and somehow, oddly reassuring.

Mueller On Trump: “Either He Has Massive Balls Or He’s Uncommonly Stupid”

Special counsel questions president’s judgement after Mr. Trump harshly criticizes him in a series of weekend tweets

The special counsel investigating Russia’s interference in the 2016 presidential election is expressing disbelief over a series of tweets by Donald Trump over the weekend harshly criticizing him and his team of prosecutors.

“Either this man has massive balls or he’s uncommonly stupid,” Robert Mueller told his investigative team on Monday, according to sources inside his office. “I can’t even keep track of all the indictable crimes we’re racking up against him and yet he just keeps digging himself in deeper.”

In his tweets, Mr. Trump seemed to suggest that the Mueller investigation is flawed because there are too many Democrats involved on his team. The president also repeated claims that Mr. Mueller, who is a longtime Republican, is conducting a partisan “witch hunt.”

“I read that Rex Tillerson called Trump an ‘effing moron,’ but this kind of reckless behavior goes far beyond that,” Mr. Mueller remarked behind closed doors. “I’m trying to find the right word for this guy. Is it idiot? Imbecile? Halfwit? Nincompoop? Or is he more like a lamebrain or a simple butthead?”

Some Republican leaders are growing worried as Mr. Trump seems to be preparing to fire Mr. Mueller in an attempt to derail his investigation. But, according to people who heard his comments, Mr. Mueller is unflinching and professes to be multiple chess moves ahead of the president.

“He’s been threatening to fire me since day one,” Mr. Mueller said. “But he’s a complete dunderhead…or is it simpleton? Anyway, Trump doesn’t seem to realize that I’ve assembled the best investigators and prosecutorial team in the country, while he’s hired a bunch of ambulance chasers from third rate law schools? It doesn’t matter if I stay or go, we’ve had this bozo dead to rights for months now. He’s done.”

Mr. Mueller concluded with a reassuring statement for Americans who feel that Mr. Trump presents an existential threat to the country: “I wish people would stop worrying and remember that I’m a Princeton grad and a former Marine Corps officer who fought in Vietnam. I have a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart. I was also a United States Assistant Attorney General and Director of the FBI. I spent my entire life fighting for America’s democratic values and ideals, and if anyone thinks that I’m going to let that lummox destroy everything I hold dear, they’re crazy. It’s checkmate on Donald Trump.”

edited 22nd Mar '18 5:25:51 AM by megaeliz

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#235969: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:21:58 AM

^If Trump sees that Mueller will be fired by lunchtime.

It's been fun.
Deadbeatloser22 from Disappeared by Space Magic (Great Old One) Relationship Status: Tsundere'ing
#235970: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:26:35 AM

Assuming he gets past the comments about his testicles in the headline and doesn't just assume it's praising him.

"Yup. That tasted purple."
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#235971: Mar 22nd 2018 at 5:38:21 AM

Trump's legal team seems remarkably outmatched here.

It's anything but the team of top lawyers that you would usually see in cases like this. He's even is trying to hire a lawyer he saw on Fox News, for God's sake.

Also, report for threatening physical Violence

Crazy Joe Biden is trying to act like a tough guy. Actually, he is weak, both mentally and physically, and yet he threatens me, for the second time, with physical assault. He doesn’t know me, but he would go down fast and hard, crying all the way. Don’t threaten people Joe!

edited 22nd Mar '18 7:18:48 AM by megaeliz

Julep Since: Jul, 2010
#235972: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:08:23 AM

[up]x4 The article missed an opportunity to say that Trump tweeted the Navy SEAL copypasta in response.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#235973: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:49:11 AM

[up][up]Bullshit, Trump. I recall when you thought some random guy in the audience at one of your Rent-A-Crowd rallies was trying to pull a gun. You looked spooked like a deer in the headlights, then dove for cover while your bodyguards dogpiled you to shield your fat body. Don't be a poser, because we all know better.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#235974: Mar 22nd 2018 at 7:52:52 AM

Trump's obvious posturing aside, still not a particularly good thing to say on Biden's part. I get that's his thing, but still.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#235975: Mar 22nd 2018 at 8:35:55 AM

Worth noting: Biden originally said it in regards to Trump's history of sexual assault and how Trump bragged about it, and Biden was at a college rally against sexual abuse

“A guy who ended up becoming our national leader said, ‘I can grab a woman anywhere, and she likes it,’ ” Biden said during a speech at the University of Miami, according to ABC News. “They asked me if I’d like to debate this gentleman, and I said ‘no.’ I said, ‘If we were in high school, I’d take him behind the gym and beat the hell out of him.’ ”

“I’ve been in a lot of locker rooms my whole life,” Biden continued. “I’m a pretty [darn] good athlete. Any guy that talked that way was usually the fattest, ugliest S.O.B. in the room.”

...

Biden’s remarks came at the University of Miami’s “It’s On Us” rally, aimed at “creating an environment where sexual assault and gender-based violence is unacceptable.”

But, as the president noted Thursday, Biden has made similar statements about Trump-based violence before.

At a Hillary Clinton campaign stop in Wilkes-Barre, Pa., Biden said he would “take Trump behind the gym.” He said the things Trump said in a 2005 “Access Hollywood” tape about kissing women without their consent and grabbing them by the genitals should be considered assault.

“What he said he did and does is the textbook definition of sexual assault,” Biden said at the campaign stop. “Think about this: It’s more than wrong. He said, ‘Because I’m famous, because I’m a star, because I’m a billionaire, I can do things other people can’t.’ What a disgusting assertion for anyone to make.”

Still not the classiest or best way to handle things, but the sentiment is definitely understandable. And being more plain spoken every now and then is a good thing for Democrats/Liberals/Progressives, at least in my opinion. Obviously show that you care, that you're willing to get down and dirty. Call a spade a fucking shovel every now and then instead of wrapping it up in abstract language or high class or scientific terminology and academic speak.

And considering how many of the women in my life have suffered due to rape or molestation, I can't say I feel any differently than Biden.

edited 22nd Mar '18 9:07:48 AM by TheWanderer

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |

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