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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#193551: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:31:31 AM

Honestly speaking, for better or for worse, your opinion of Hillary Clinton (backed by facts or by delusion) is pretty much my litmus test of how well I should take you seriously.

And my point is that this is a very acceptable thing. For memes. But if you actually think you are being in any way critical, intelligent, and responsible with these thoughts, then you, sir, are fake news.

Dismissing climate change deniers does make sense, in the scientific context. I mean, you really have to be all sorts of arrogant to claim you know more than a vast number of scientists that greatly outnumber those who are on your side...which tend to not actually be scientists. If you however, want to say that a climate change denier has nothing to contribute to the world...I wouldn't agree. They may not have a bright future in S(T)EM but we will always need someone who can clean the toilets.

Yeah you can have your opinion that 2+2 is 5, but it's an opinion and it's not backed up by actual math so if you try to present it as a fact you will be teetering between the dangerous edges of mockery, contempt and being ignored in actual scientific contexts. All of which are funny to me so knock yourself out mate.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193552: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:34:46 AM

In any case, I'd appreciate an answer.
I would say that the candidates' positions on the issue of climate change was not a significant factor in my favoring or disfavoring one candidate over the other.

Yes, I'm trying to be vague enough to avoid opening a can of worms that would probably be better opened on a climate change thread rather than one that is ostensibly about US Politics.

I would also note that I would have to say that Mr. Trump is probably more likely to start a nuclear war than Mrs. Clinton would have been, but that I think the chance of either actually starting a nuclear war is not really significant, so that doesn't influence my judgement one way or the other.

Okay, back to work.

edited 16th Jun '17 10:53:54 AM by Bense

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#193553: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:35:03 AM

New from the WTF Just Happened Today feed:

1/ Trump tweets that he's under investigation for his role in firing James Comey.

https://t.co/9YauNtnJv2

2/ Rod Rosenstein urged Americans to "exercise caution" when evaluating stories attributed to anonymous officials.

https://t.co/WSdK01klma

3/ Rosenstein privately acknowledged that he may have to recuse himself from the Russia investigation. (I think this one came up earlier)

https://t.co/j2FbAgKRor

4/ Jared Kushner's finances and business dealings are now part of the Mueller investigation.

https://t.co/59QXyNS3Jj

5/ The Trump transition team was ordered to preserve Russia-related documents. Same as a post earlier on this page I think.

https://t.co/IoAV8STwXu

6/ The White House is referring questions about a potential a Oval Office recording device to outside counsel.

https://t.co/cnNJnDq70D

7/ An American lobbyist representing Russian interests contradicted Jeff Sessions' sworn testimony.

https://t.co/gkg0wXzek4

8/ Trump picked his family's event planner to run federal housing programs in New York.

https://t.co/j5D5VUDxB8

9/ Senate Republican leaders want to bring their health care bill to the Senate floor by the end of June.

https://t.co/HxYLPyAj6M

Haven't they leaned that a rush job of NOT the way to go about this? Can't help feeling their insistence on getting this out of the way fast rather than well is an indication of how they feel beyond any other rhetoric.

poll/ 65% think Trump has little to no respect for country's institutions.

https://t.co/Xvh0Z1Lkqh

edited 16th Jun '17 10:38:08 AM by sgamer82

TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#193554: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:39:09 AM

They want it out of the way because it's part of their future budget plans. If they can't jump over this hurdle, they'll trip on the ones to come.

LSBK Since: Sep, 2014
#193555: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:43:14 AM

It's the same song and dance with these Trump supporter drive bys.

Except Bense doesn't actually seem to be a Trump supporter. I'd agree that we should critique his actual views, but that does not mean you get to force views they haven't actually expressed onto them.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#193556: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:50:43 AM

[up] in my own case I've questioned his assertion that, despite that fact and despite everything Trump has been up to, he considers Trump still the better choice over Clinton. Mostly on the grounds that the idea legitimately baffles me.

edited 16th Jun '17 10:52:24 AM by sgamer82

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#193557: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:53:26 AM

Which sounds more like being anti-Democrat/ anti-Clinton. In which case Trump's policies and viewpoints don't actually matter, just not being Clinton is sufficient.

Gaon Smoking Snake from Grim Up North Since: Jun, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#193558: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:53:42 AM

I'm just confused that Bense is yet to provide any reasoning for his assessment that Trump was the lesser evil. Ok, nuclear war paranoia wasn't one, neither was global warming (?), so what was it?

"All you Fascists bound to lose."
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#193559: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:54:30 AM

I would say that the candidate's positions on the issue of climate change was not a significant factor in my favoring or disfavoring one candidate over the other.

Yes, I'm trying to be vague enough to avoid opening a can of worms that would probably be better opened on a climate change thread rather than one that is ostensibly about US Politics.

Well, I would certainly question your logic there, and honestly, that would seem to indicate that you don't consider it important.

I would actually agree that it oughtn't be a political issue, but I think the GOP have made it one. Regardless, I do think it's an appropriate topic for this forum, although I suppose the mods might disagree.

I would also note that I would have to say that Mr. Trump is probably more likely to start a nuclear war than Mrs. Clinton would have been, but that I think the chance of either actually starting a nuclear war is not really significant, so that doesn't influence my judgement one way or the other.

Well, I appreciate your optimism, if nothing else. Certainly, I'd like to believe that, but I keep going back to comments he's made in the past, and I'm honestly not sure if he understands the dangers of nuclear weapons, let alone the dangers of their proliferation.

May I ask why you don't believe nuclear war is likely?

Oh God! Natural light!
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#193560: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:55:16 AM

Also, Bense is a representative of the kind of person who will need to be swayed against the GOP if the blue wave we want to happen happens.

He should not be treated with hostility, and he should be taken seriously.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#193561: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:56:14 AM

Way too much directly talking about Bense going on in this thread. I disagree strongly with everything he has to say, but guys: we're supposed to discuss the topic, not other tropers.

Debates about whether or not Bense is a troll and/or a Trump supporter fall into the category of discussing other tropers, which is just a hop, skip, and a jump away from issuing personal attacks.

Does it even matter if he's a Trump supporter or not? That line of discussion carries an implicit message that an opinion - any opinion, even if it's just a suggestion of what would be tasty to have for lunch - isn't worth hearing if the person voicing it voted for Trump. That is an extremely unhealthy attitude to carry into any kind of political discourse, and just makes us look even more like an echo chamber if every dissenting opinion, regardless of merit, is met wth "ARE YOU A TRUMPER?! SHALL WE BURN THE WITCH?!"

Remember the lesson of the French Revolution: how even the noblest cause can turn effortlessly to tyranny when we stop listening to reason and care only for purging the wicked. This conversation hasn't felt like a debate for several pages. It feels like an interrogation, like we're trying to root out a Commie in our midst. We're Democrats. We're supposed to be better than that.

Be better.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#193562: Jun 16th 2017 at 10:57:45 AM

[up] TBF not everyone here is a Democrat or even a US citizen.

But yes, I'm ready to move on to an actual topic instead of post after post about a troper.

edited 16th Jun '17 10:58:30 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#193563: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:00:07 AM

Here's today's wtf feed to help that along

https://whatthefuckjusthappenedtoday.com/2017/06/16/Day-148/

Also got this notification

"Trump says canceling Obama administration's deal with Cuba" - Get updates at Reuters.com

edited 16th Jun '17 11:00:42 AM by sgamer82

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#193564: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:01:43 AM

I disagree with Bense on a lot, but I am genuinely interested in hearing his opinion.

If I've comes across as inquisitorial here, I apologize, and I'll try to avoid that going forward.

edited 16th Jun '17 11:02:08 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Bense Since: Aug, 2010
#193565: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:03:15 AM

Perhaps I believe that neither candidate has either the will or support from the rest of their party to make a significant difference in the climate change issue, regardless of their favoring it or no, and therefore I judged other factors as more important.

As to why I think a nuclear war isn't likely today, it's probably because I was a teenager through the majority of the '80s, when it seemed quite a bit more likely.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#193566: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:05:55 AM

Yep, Trump is gonna announce new restrictions on Cuba. They haven't been very clear on what exactly will be restricted.

Donald Trump will on Friday announce new restrictions on trade and travel to Cuba on Friday, but will not entirely reverse Barack Obama’s 2015 rapprochement with Havana.

Diplomatic relations will remain, and so will commercial flights, but travel to Cuba will be more tightly monitored and business will face restrictions aimed at ensuring that Cuban military and intelligence organisations do not benefit.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#193567: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:06:00 AM

Yeah I'm gonna go ahead and break up the fun, because if my memory is correct I actually know why Bense is being so vague.

If my memory is correct about past discussions his reasons for preferring Trump to Clinton are ones that the forum rules mean we can't discuss here, thus there's no point in him telling us what his reasons are.

It's a rabbit hole we're not allowed to go down.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#193568: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:07:13 AM

A full-scale nuclear war is certainly far less likely today than it was in the sixties and seventies. The primary danger in that regard is the behavior of non-state actors, such as terrorists, who might acquire a nuclear weapon and use it either carelessly of or with the intention to provoke nuclear war. There's also the outside chance that a rogue state like North Korea could detonate one offensively.

That said, the more we get reactionary, right-wing groups taking over national leadership positions, the more likely we are to fall back to the sort of nationalism that leads to wars. Historically, escalation is controlled by the least stable leaders.

edited 16th Jun '17 11:08:38 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#193569: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:13:47 AM

[up]x4 Huh, sounds like you're about as old as my parents, then. (Funnily enough, neither of them seem to have been concerned about nuclear war).

Still, I'm curious why you don't feel that it's likely today, especially when compared to the 80's. What factors do you feel are in play that mitigate that risk?

And in regards to climate change...while I can understand that perspective (though I'm not sure why you would feel that Clinton didn't have the will or the backing in her party to at least attempt it)...don't you think that Trump's proposals, combined with how he's denied that it's a problem, might be actively make things worse, or at least be negligent enough we'll miss our chance to improve things?

edited 16th Jun '17 11:14:52 AM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#193570: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:36:05 AM

I'd argue the real threat nukes provide isn't political so much as technical. There's very few circumstances in which a head-of-state would sit down and say "Y'know, my best option is clearly to bring nuclear fire down on my nation!"

The real threat is more that a flock of geese will look an awful lot like a nuke and someone scared enough will decide to launch a full counter-attack.

Geese are humanity's ancient enemy and want to trigger a nuclear war so that they can enslave mankind from the ashes.

Leviticus 19:34
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#193571: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:45:58 AM

@Tobias: As much as I want to encourage being better it's been the same pattern with Trump voting tropers every single time since I started following this thread in the election season. Either they exhaust their benefit of the doubt or they flee when pressed and think we're the oppressive ones even when we try very hard not to be. Can you blame us for finding it hard to think differently?

edited 16th Jun '17 11:47:21 AM by Elle

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#193572: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:46:02 AM

[up][up]So what you're saying is that the only way to ensure safety for Humanity we must immediately dismantle the geese population? As someone who has interacted with Geese in the park I have no problem with that idea.

edited 16th Jun '17 11:46:13 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#193573: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:48:33 AM

[up]More over, you know what Nazis did? Goosestepping! Hitler was a goose in disguise the whole time!

Leviticus 19:34
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#193574: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:52:21 AM

Oh, geese, guys. This topic is migrating south fast.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#193575: Jun 16th 2017 at 11:52:53 AM

[up] ...Okay, that sparks my undying hatred.

Disgusted, but not surprised

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