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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#184251: Apr 22nd 2017 at 12:57:23 AM

I think you're confusing personal dislike with how they're going to respond to whatever his financial policies are in any given week. You can hate a person and still go along with whatever they're doing.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#184252: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:01:13 AM

That's... really not the case here, though. What are you even on about? Are you claiming that all rich people like each other?

I mean, there's a long and well-documented history of Trump giving wealthy new yorkers every possible reason to hate his guts on a personal level. He's an embarrassment at best in their eyes.

I'm saying they can have whatever opinion they want on the guy but at the end of the day they're still supporting him because they expect him to be useful. He wasn't Wall Street's candidate but they love his policies right now because his policies are Wall Street-friendly.

And why wouldn't they be? Wall Street gave cash to Trump too. Not as much as they have to Hillary but they significantly funded Trump.

[up] Yeah pretty much.

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:08:05 AM by MadSkillz

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#184253: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:06:27 AM

Reforming the US is very straightforward if you just realize it is an option. It takes one simple step: Start organizing an amendment to kill Citizens United. Institute spending limits on the canadian model. Heck, write those into the aforementioned amendment. Done. You do not need to legislate a shorter primary season or any other details - once politicians are on a finite budget, the campaign season will get shorter all by itself.

And this is doable, because approximately no voters at all like citizens united. And while it is in the interest of the plutocracy, it is really difficult to disguise the fact that any argument in favor of citizens united is an argument in favor of the state being the puppet of the rich. And a lot of individual politicans will buy into this, simply because fundraising is a circle of hell. No citizens united, and they no longer have to do it.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#184254: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:09:52 AM

[up] Basically, yes.

I think you're going to need the Supreme Court specifically to kill Citizens United and that means having a progressive be president to put progressive justices in place.

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:10:19 AM by MadSkillz

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#184255: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:14:51 AM

Or just a Democrat. Nowadays SCOTUS judges always belong to roughly two categories depending on the party.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#184256: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:17:27 AM

Timing is important from what I gather. Having a progressing president means nothing to SCOTUS nominations if no seats are open to begin with, right?

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:17:47 AM by MorningStar1337

Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#184257: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:18:13 AM

[up][up] No. Amendments overrule the supremes. You dont need them to change their minds on this, which they are very unlikely to do, you simply write it into the constitution at which point the supreme court cannot argue against it anymore.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#184258: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:20:24 AM

@Septimus Not necessarily. There are corporate friendly Dems. I don't know any that support Citizens United but I'm sure they're there.

[up]Oh, gotcha.

@Morning Yep but many Justices are old right now

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:20:45 AM by MadSkillz

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#184259: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:24:45 AM

Not how SCOTUS appointments work. Corporate friendly Democrats do exist but there is no indication that they use a SCOTUS appointment in any different way than say Sanders would.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#184260: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:29:17 AM

[up][up][up] I think there are three problems with that.

  • There hasn't been an new amendment in recent years and the process is is so complicated and the enviroment so polarized that getting one in is impossible.
  • There is potential that once the door is opened by the one amendment that people will try to make a mad dash to overturn these or other amendments. I think this paranoia makes people even more resistant to changing the constitution, regardless of the cause.
  • Yes, the amendments can be overturned. Its the Bookends to the prohibition era in fact. (and I think there was another case resulting from the Civil Rights movement). Its rare, but it can be done, which I think lead to the paranoia about letting any new amendments in.

On a side note. Doesn't the UN have a higher authority over the sovereignty of the constitution.

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:40:39 AM by MorningStar1337

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#184261: Apr 22nd 2017 at 1:41:15 AM

Doesn't the UN have a higher authority over the sovereignty of the constitution?

The UN has no authority over anything, it's a forum. International law technically does.

edited 22nd Apr '17 1:42:38 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#184263: Apr 22nd 2017 at 2:23:46 AM

[up] And technically the state of Hawaii is a chain of islands. So he even got that wrong.

And yeah, I doubt very much Trump has ever agreed to any contract in spirit during his lifetime.

edited 22nd Apr '17 2:24:55 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Izeinsummer Since: Jun, 2013
#184264: Apr 22nd 2017 at 4:35:00 AM

[up][up][up][up] Polarization does not matter here. It actually will help you get this passed, because the voters on both sides are convinced the other side is bought and paid for.

.. with some justification.

As for "Has not been done recently".. because noone has mounted an effort to do so with a cause that has broad appeal. Overturning citizens united would have that.

And as for worrying about a general dash for amendments.. you do realize that argument is utterly incompatible with your previous argument that it is not feasible? But in any case, I cannot actually think of any malicious changes to the document that would command the necessary backing in a way campaign finance reform would. If you have a specific worry, rather than just generic "what if" try and look up how broadly popular whatever you are worrying about actually is.

But in any case, the point is that the amendment process is a part of the US political system, and it is intended to allow you to alter aspects of the constitution that have become intolerable to the people. In this particular case, the ailment is that the republic is sinking into corruption. It is definitely possible to mount a single issue campaign unifying all creeds, ideologies and skin tones to put a stop to that, because anti-corruption campaigns are always popular.

And it is also a necessary change. Because Citizens united will kill the republic, and you wont get it overturned by replacing justices. Congress wont make it the litmus test for picking new judges in a million years.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#184266: Apr 22nd 2017 at 6:48:32 AM

Today's the March for Science. There's quite a lot going on around the world.

edited 22nd Apr '17 6:49:09 AM by megaeliz

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184267: Apr 22nd 2017 at 7:51:00 AM

[up] Indeed. I'm participating in the NYC march today.

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#184268: Apr 22nd 2017 at 7:52:05 AM

@Amendments: If we're going to amend the constitution I think we should do something like declare healthcare and education inalienable rights or abolish the electoral college.

Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#184269: Apr 22nd 2017 at 8:10:04 AM

[up]Good luck getting the support for that.

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#184270: Apr 22nd 2017 at 8:11:18 AM

I think it would be easier than creating an amendment to get rid of Citizens United.

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#184271: Apr 22nd 2017 at 8:21:15 AM

[up][up][up]Add all second and third generation human rights to the US constitutions, while we're at it.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Fourthspartan56 from Georgia, US Since: Oct, 2016 Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
#184272: Apr 22nd 2017 at 8:34:35 AM

[up] Yeah.. that won't happen any time soon. The GOP would never stand for it and their supporters would just see it as communism or (((globalism))).

edited 22nd Apr '17 8:34:48 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Einstein would turn over in his grave. Not only does God play dice, the dice are loaded." -Chairman Sheng-Ji Yang
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#184273: Apr 22nd 2017 at 9:02:28 AM

[up][up]You don't need an amendment for that. Those human rights treaties note  are already supreme us law as per the constitution. There are two things blocking them. RU Ds that make them meaningless and loopholes that SCOTUS reads into treaties (the non-self executing treaty idea).
US Law would change dramatically if just one administration (and senate) dropped the RU Ds to the International Bill of Human Rights.

edited 22nd Apr '17 9:05:56 AM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#184274: Apr 22nd 2017 at 9:24:47 AM

[up]What's an RUD?

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV

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