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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184126: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:01:51 AM

@Fighteer: And yet compared to the Bush and Obama eras, there is a far greater persistence of popular mobilization in the Trump era, which is a positive sign in the very troubling times we live in. Maybe enough for some of the bolder reforms to actually be put into effect next time around, if the democrats can actually harness and reinforce that mobilization. You're not going to be able to do that without dreaming big and having bold, transformative policy platforms.

edited 21st Apr '17 9:06:12 AM by CaptainCapsase

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#184127: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:02:31 AM

[up][up]So's mine. Tis irony incarnate (and cheaper than the wall to boot). Plus both a long-term proof against any future similar proposal and (potentially) a kind of an apology to Mexico.

[up][up][up][up]I would guess it would be town halls on a larger scale plus continuous organization on the scale of Indivisible and those articles that megaeliz links.
Maybe people will stick to political causes for that long, but more likely this round of organization will produce long-term bonds that are also long-term means for people to associate and keep each other informed. Who's to say those networks can't creep across the population, and gradually address both ignorance and impatience?

edited 21st Apr '17 9:08:14 AM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#184128: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:21:44 AM

Capsace: It is important that we maintain the big, transformative ideas in our political consciousness and seek candidates who are aligned with them, while at the same time recognizing that effective change is gradual and must be nurtured.

edited 21st Apr '17 9:21:55 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#184129: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:23:06 AM

Ok TV Tropes can go fuck itself with resetting my posts.

Anyways thing with what the Republican Party does, the supply side economics, the gutting healthcare and education, hyper arming themselves, super jingoistic patriotism for its own sake, is that it is not something that ends up well in the long term.

Not so much 1984, but more Jack London's The Iron Heel.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#184130: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:32:25 AM

[up][up]Well hopefully the democrats won't try to undercut their own message in attempts to seem pragmatic and appeal to right leaning moderates.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184131: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:32:53 AM

[up][up][up] That's generally not how many large scale societal changes have occurred historically during the modern (19th century onwards pretty much) period; you see relatively long periods of stagnation or gradual regression on an issue or set of issues followed by comparatively short but substantial periods of turmoil and change in response to a crisis* that has become too severe for the dominant social classes to ignore. The emergence and entrenchment of welfare capitalism came in response to the unprecedented mass mobilization that occurred in the early 20th century, and, when looking at individual countries frequently occurred over a span of a few years to a decade. Further tweaking and refinements to this paradigm occurred gradually, but that was after a critical threshold was crossed that forced a major shift in attitudes among western elites. The civil rights movement and the massive shift in societal norms that occurred at the same time in United States was similar, and ideally, yet another period of societal transformation is in the near future.

* Mass popular mobilization itself a major crisis even in the absence of economic or military disasters to compound it.

edited 21st Apr '17 9:40:14 AM by CaptainCapsase

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#184132: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:37:31 AM

[up]x7 — Trump couldn't pay for that himself, even if forced to do so with a gun to his head. Because he's not as filthy rich as he claims to be. His boasts about how much money he's got are just more bluster and bullshit.

edited 21st Apr '17 9:39:03 AM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#184133: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:41:54 AM

[up]

I am of course assuming that the wall's construction will be so slow that dismantling what is there wouldn't be out of Trump's price range. If he really was as rich as he claimed.

Because he's not as filthy rich as he claims to be. His boasts about how much money he's got are just more bluster and bullshit.

That's the other part of the revenge fantasy — revealing the pauper behind the tacky gold curtains.

edited 21st Apr '17 9:42:45 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#184134: Apr 21st 2017 at 9:52:42 AM

@Capsace: Here's my problem with the mass social mobilization theory: It's blind. Social justice is a powerful force but when wielded randomly and without thought it can crush valuable institutions and leave a landscape of resentment in its wake. The New Deal came about not through Torches and Pitchforks but because the elites (of whom FDR was a member) saw the revolt coming and took action to save their own hides. We're still fighting a rearguard action against the elites trying to reclaim their lost privilege. Civil rights were enacted using the existing structures of government, and the revolt against that is ongoing and vicious.

Where I particularly have a problem is when people take an accelerationist point of view — that because major change usually only accompanies social revolution, it should be our goal to make things as horrible as possible in order to foment said revolution. This is the mentality that Donald Trump is better than Hillary Clinton because he will wreck things so badly that the only recourse will be the Torches and Pitchforks. It discards entirely the idea that progressive change can occur without the threat of the guillotine. Nobody should want a new Civil War or a new French Revolution.

Moreover, I'm deeply frightened of someone in said revolution torching my home (literally or metaphorically) in order to motivate me to join; or putting me up against a wall because I'm enjoying too much privilege. Because those are the sort of thing that happens in them.

edited 21st Apr '17 10:00:06 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#184135: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:00:25 AM

Revolution has never been civilized. And it has always been necessary.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#184136: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:10:31 AM

That's... a nice quote, I guess, but doesn't actually add anything to the conversation. Fighteer's whole point is that revolution can be civilized, and this is vastly superior to the alternative option. If it is at all possible to affect social change without violently overthrowing the existing social order, then we should do that, because otherwise a lot of people die and you run the rise of a Full-Circle Revolution that makes the whole thing pointless anyway. Accelerationist thinking is incredibly dangerous.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#184137: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:11:27 AM

[up][up][up] That's the risk of course, and deliberately trying to make things worse to provoke such a reaction is never the way to go (kicking the can further down the road is preferable to deliberately setting it off, though at a certain point it's better to just brace for impact), but the general pattern of recent history suggests it's almost unavoidable.

edited 21st Apr '17 10:12:12 AM by CaptainCapsase

Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#184138: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:13:38 AM

I'm not saying how anything should, or should not be done.

I am just pointing out precedent.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#184139: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:19:34 AM

Where I particularly have a problem is when people take an accelerationist point of view — that because major change usually only accompanies social revolution, it should be our goal to make things as horrible as possible in order to foment said revolution. This is the mentality that Donald Trump is better than Hillary Clinton because he will wreck things so badly that the only recourse will be the Torches and Pitchforks. It discards entirely the idea that progressive change can occur without the threat of the guillotine. Nobody should want a new Civil War or a new French Revolution.

Accelerationist thinking is incredibly dangerous.

And on that note: fuck Jimmy Dore.

edited 21st Apr '17 10:20:48 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#184140: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:24:21 AM

[up] Okay I'm curious, who is Jimmy Dore (and how is he an Accelrationist)?

edited 21st Apr '17 10:24:53 AM by MorningStar1337

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#184141: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:26:07 AM

[up] A stand-up comedian who occasionally appears on The Young Turks. He's one of the more unlikable people on that show, which is saying something. And he's an accelerationist prick. He's the first name that comes to my mind when I hear "accelerationist".

I honestly don't have the stomach to rewatch and link TYT episodes starring him. Or any TYT episodes — I've pretty much sworn off that show.

Even worse: he's also not very funny IMHO.

[down] Perhaps I should have put comedian in air quotes.

edited 21st Apr '17 10:33:03 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#184142: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:31:42 AM

[up]You have to be funny to be a comedian...

Ivanka Trump will participate in a panel discussion on women's economic empowerment during an official visit to Germany next week.

The White House announced the schedule for the first daughter's trip to Berlin, scheduled for Tuesday. It will be the first official international trip for Trump, who has joined the administration as an unpaid adviser to her father, President Donald Trump.

Ivanka Trump is traveling to Berlin at the invitation of German Chancellor Angela Merkel (AHN'-geh-lah MEHR'-kuhl). She will participate in the W20 Summit, a women-focused effort within the Group of 20 countries.

On that day in Berlin, Trump will also take in a technical school, visit the United States embassy and go to the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Europe. Her day will conclude with a gala dinner.

Gee, I wonder if it's possible to stuff Spicer in cargo just so he can see that memorial...

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#184143: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:35:36 AM

@Fighteer: The problem is not that you aren't disclaiming the generalization, but that there is a generalization to begin with. Much of the arguments about white working class people rely on the notion that they are all bigots and that none of them will ever vote for a Democrat.

I am not sure if Capsase's "dashed enthusiasm" theory is valid and was trying to get a discussion on another one - that Hillary simply did not appeal to working class people.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#184144: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:41:18 AM

She is just way too establishment to rally give the air of someone who could rally offer change. I don't think people who voted Trump really wanted him to burn things so that something else could rise from its ashes: He was just the most likely one to change something.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#184145: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:50:13 AM

NBC Breaking news:

Treasury Dept. denies Exxon Mobile from Drilling in Russia.

New Survey coming this weekend!
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#184146: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:54:45 AM

[up] Can you elaborate. I see three likely scenarios from that sentence.

  • The US treasure department is saying Exxon can't drill there (the scenario that is implied, but I find it likely given the precedent).
  • The Russian Treasury is the one forbidding it.
  • The US department is claiming that Exxon isn't drilling for oil in Russia (wouldn't put it past the Trump regime, but the "from" makes it unlikely).

edited 21st Apr '17 10:58:06 AM by MorningStar1337

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#184147: Apr 21st 2017 at 10:57:59 AM

I think that means that the cooperation planned between Exxon and Russia is not given the go-ahead.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#184148: Apr 21st 2017 at 11:04:16 AM

Basically, Exxon asked if they can drill in Russia despite the sanctions forbidding them from doing so.

US Treasury department replies essentially saying "LOL, no."

New Survey coming this weekend!
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#184150: Apr 21st 2017 at 11:24:44 AM

Tillerson's not going to be happy, but not even Trump cares what Tillerson thinks.

What Trump does think though, is that judging a president by his first 100 Days is unfair and the FAKE NEWS isn't reporting his yuuuge accomplishments.

Reminder of everything Trump said he's accomplish in his first 100 days.


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