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MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183476: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:36:26 PM

And it is those tendencies that vanish as one ages. You become more rational. You care less about "selling out". And you start developing an actual understanding of what constitutes authenticity in a candidate.

You call Trump voters rational?

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#183477: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:38:18 PM

[up][up][up][up] I see. I apologize if that question gave the impression that I was like those people.

edited 18th Apr '17 12:39:21 PM by MorningStar1337

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#183478: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:39:37 PM

I was talking about bad optics and systemic corruption.

You mean the part of their foundations took donations from big whatever groups therefore they are corrupt and in the pockets of the big whatever ?

Because under this logic there is not a single living or dead politician that isn't a sellout or in the pockets of the big whatever. It is the most common practice from corporations to unions to donate money to candidates, often on both sides, in the hopes or certainty they will receive some benefits or won't be left out by the administration decision making.

And at its day and age is virtually impossible for major companies and corporations to have no influence in modern politics. Specially when they make up a large share of the country's economic power.

This by itself isn't evidence of corruption and you'd need to be a naive purist to believe that the only politicians worth to vote for are the ones who're completely independent of the Big Whatever influence, because those candidates simply don't exist and those who didn't get large donations from those Big Whatever have as much chance to become president or influential in politics as my left nut has the chance of being crowned the queen of Persia.

Inter arma enim silent leges
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#183479: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:40:28 PM

[up][up][up][up]The Sanders wing has inadvertently cultivated a group of people who despise the DNC or DCCC for existing. Not in the sense of "repent and I will forgive", but "just stop existing already".

While encouraging voter registration and educating them about how their vote matters is a good idea, suggesting that the DNC attempt this for that segment of Sanders' base is a total waste of resources. Unless you have a half decent proxy.

edited 18th Apr '17 12:41:49 PM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183480: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:41:48 PM

[up][up] Accepting that this sort of behavior is ubiquitous in politics and resigning ourselves to it being impossible to meaningfully address are two different things entirely.

edited 18th Apr '17 12:42:18 PM by CaptainCapsase

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#183481: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:42:15 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah looking for "pure" candidates does seems to be yet another case of hunting Unicorns, does it.

edited 18th Apr '17 12:43:23 PM by MorningStar1337

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183482: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:43:32 PM

@Krieger: So you're literally saying they should do nothing in light of Trump's victory, and count on him being unpopular enough that the party's pick coasts to victory in 2020? Or did you misread my post, because your response doesn't really seem to address my point?

edited 18th Apr '17 12:45:05 PM by CaptainCapsase

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#183483: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:47:02 PM

@Kreiger, do you think the Bernie folk are Traitors to the Democrats, the Unwitting Pawns of the alt-right, Spanners In The Works, or just fanboys?

edited 18th Apr '17 12:47:39 PM by MorningStar1337

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#183484: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:52:09 PM

[up]It runs the gamut. There are Bernie supporters who went on to support Hillary, but on the other side of the coin you have those who insist that every "progressive" policy must directly benefit them, and everyone else outside that tiny circle can get lost. Those are the traitors to the Democratic Party. They don't care about the big tent, just theirs.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183485: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:52:52 PM

[up][up] That's not at all condescending. As opposed to [up], which is a far more nuanced position than I expect. Most of the people supporting Sanders ultimately voted for Clinton in the general election, myself included.

edited 18th Apr '17 12:56:55 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183486: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:54:38 PM

Because under this logic there is not a single living or dead politician that isn't a sellout or in the pockets of the big whatever. It is the most common practice from corporations to unions to donate money to candidates, often on both sides, in the hopes or certainty they will receive some benefits or won't be left out by the administration decision making.

Yup. I'm agreeing 100 % with this. Most politicians can call the other corrupt and singling it out as an individual problem when it's really a systemic one.

And at its day and age is virtually impossible for major companies and corporations to have no influence in modern politics. Specially when they make up a large share of the country's economic power.

I view that as a problem. Are you telling me you don't?

This by itself isn't evidence of corruption and you'd need to be a naive purist to believe that the only politicians worth to vote for are the ones who're completely independent of the Big Whatever influence, because those candidates simply don't exist and those who didn't get large donations from those Big Whatever have as much chance to become president or influential in politics as my left nut has the chance of being crowned the queen of Persia.

Again it's systemic corruption. Go check the study I just posted. Policy is determined by the rich not the lower classes.

And lobbyists themselves tend to be walking bribes in suits. Legalized bribes that is. You can't tell me it's not happening. The Republican Party has been completely bought out for instance.

Yes, I'd rather have a politician taking money from solar energy companies than from oil companies but l don't see that as admirable. The ideal should be for politicians to listen to the public first and foremost and not take any money from companies.

Now I don't think that the only ones worth voting for are the ones independent of big money but I am criticizing and pointing out why it's wrong.

I mean I still vote and campaign for people who take big money because it's better than the alternatives.

Hell, I even campaigned for Hillary.

edited 18th Apr '17 12:57:57 PM by MadSkillz

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#183487: Apr 18th 2017 at 12:56:53 PM

[up][up]No, he means that chasing unicorn chasers is a waste of time and effort.

[up]I don't view that as a big problem , specially for a country that makes up for a large share of the global trade and wealth.

And yes, addressing those donation to politicians issue isn't a ideological problem, it is a transparency problem, which means it has to be fought in the courtrooms or by the public administration agencies in order to check if the donations are resulting in favoritism.

Fighting over which candidate is or isn't in the pockets of someone is a complete waste of time. By the way, one of the reasons why Trump voters got duped into voting for him was exactly that. That he was so rich he couldn't be bought and would represent the interest of the working America and Hillary being perceived as being in the pockets of the Big Whatever. Well that wasn't exactly true was it?

Corporations, companies, unions and whatever has money, power and influence will interfere in politics as long as they see they will gain something from it. Their weight and influence in the economy can't be ignored by politicians. Yes, they will have a say in whatever government because it is practically impossible to govern without their support.

But guess what? Being in touch with the voterbase desires and needs but also making sure that the companies that don't feel like they have something to lose with your government has a name and it is called compromise. Try to govern without it to see how far you will go.

edited 18th Apr '17 1:01:28 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183489: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:00:17 PM

Gonna re-post what I quoted before:

All for ourselves, and nothing for other people, seems, in every age of the world, to have been the vile maxim of the masters of mankind.-Adam Smith

Civil government, so far as it is instituted for the security of property, is in reality instituted for the defence of the rich against the poor, or of those who have some property against those who have none at all.-Adam Smith

Landholders ought to have a share in the government, to support these invaluable interests, and to balance and check the other. They ought to be so constituted as to protect the minority of the opulent against the majority. The senate, therefore, ought to be this body; and to answer these purposes, they ought to have permanency and stability.”-James Madison

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#183490: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:06:02 PM

The sky is blue, water is wet, fire burns and I am hungry.

Inter arma enim silent leges
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183491: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:10:10 PM

@Angelus: We'll have to come to an agreed upon definition upon what exactly constitutes a unicorn chaser. I get the distinct impression that MadSkillz and myself (and more pertinently about 50% of Sanders's voters as opposed to the <10% who refused to vote for Clinton) would be categorized as such by certain posters in a conversation behind our backs. Perhaps I'm wrong, but that's what I'm taking issue with.

edited 18th Apr '17 1:18:55 PM by CaptainCapsase

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#183492: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:24:07 PM

Here is some.

  • Bernie of bust crowd
  • They are on the pockets of the corporate big whatever crowds
  • They are career politicians = bad crowd
  • They don't subscribe to by ideas of social justice or whatever is my pet cause crowds
  • Single issue wonks crowds
  • Taking issues with politicians who don't cater 99.99% to their needs crowds
  • They did something 20 years ago I didn't like and I refuse to acknowledge they chanced their stances crowd
  • They are just as bad as each other crowd

To list a few.

Inter arma enim silent leges
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183493: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:31:41 PM

[up] I would agree those sorts of attitudes are a problem, but I think the amount of time devoted to complaining about them far outstrips how numerous those people actually are.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#183494: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:39:56 PM

I'm with Captain on this one, though I reserve the right to start worrying about them if the wrong sorts of Democrats start winning 2018 primaries.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183495: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:44:50 PM

Yep. I get the impression that a lot of people here view Sanders and his wing as a second enemy to crush and throw into the wind.

I mean you guys are endlessly complaining about a minority of Bernie supporters.

The sky is blue, water is wet, fire burns and I am hungry.

It's obvious, yes, but what are we doing about it?

edited 18th Apr '17 1:51:03 PM by MadSkillz

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#183496: Apr 18th 2017 at 1:54:00 PM

Funny story there, the complaints about the Unicorn Brigade generally only start when someone takes a potshot at Clinton or makes an "if only Bernie had won the primary..." sort of comment.

It's less people blaming the Unicorn Brigade for all the world's ills and more a collective rolling of eyes when it's suggested that Saint Bernie would have fixed everything.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
blkwhtrbbt The Dragon of the Eastern Sea from Doesn't take orders from Vladimir Putin Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: I'm just a poor boy, nobody loves me
The Dragon of the Eastern Sea
#183497: Apr 18th 2017 at 2:01:41 PM

Funny story there, the complaints about the Unicorn Brigade generally only start when someone takes a potshot at Clinton or makes an "if only Bernie had won the primary..." sort of comment. It's less people blaming the Unicorn Brigade for all the world's ills and more a collective rolling of eyes when it's suggested that Saint Bernie would have fixed everything.

Go ahead and put that in your signature. Frame it and stick it on the wall. Bookmark it. Save EVERYBODY some time next time this comes up.

Say to the others who did not follow through You're still our brothers, and we will fight for you
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183498: Apr 18th 2017 at 2:02:44 PM

[up][up] Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I've seen plenty of people bring up topics or articles so they can take potshots at the Unicorn Brigade. Anytime Tulsi is brought up, she's mocked and then people attack the Unicorn Brigade. When a progressive initiative/candidate is defeated, I've seen a troper or two mock "the Unicorn Brigade" and bring it up as evidence to confirm their beliefs about the Unicorn Brigade's faulty thinking.

edited 18th Apr '17 2:03:01 PM by MadSkillz

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#183499: Apr 18th 2017 at 2:05:09 PM

With regards to Gabbard, are you defending her or just pointing out the tendency some of us have to link complaints about her to certain segments of the left?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183500: Apr 18th 2017 at 2:05:42 PM

The complaints about her are fully warranted.

It's the latter I'm talking about.

edited 18th Apr '17 2:07:18 PM by MadSkillz


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