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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PushoverMediaCritic I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out. from the Italy of America Since: Jul, 2015 Relationship Status: watch?v=dQw4w9WgXcQ
I'm sorry Tien, but I must go all out.
#183226: Apr 16th 2017 at 10:39:23 PM

I can sympathize with the bull's creator, though. It's like if you posed for a picture to make yourself look good, but someone edited themself in later on in a way that makes you look like an asshole. If you didn't actually do anything wrong to deserve that treatment, why should the edited version be the one everyone sees, potentially harming your reputation?

edited 16th Apr '17 10:40:12 PM by PushoverMediaCritic

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183227: Apr 16th 2017 at 10:45:14 PM

[up] That very concern is probably why the Visual Artists Rights Act of 1990 mentioned in the article is a thing.

Too bad for him that his work predates it.

Disgusted, but not surprised
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#183228: Apr 16th 2017 at 10:54:25 PM

Art may change with the times, but there's a difference between a change in interpretation and a physical change to the art itself. Question for those who think it's okay for the "Fearless Girl" statue to stay up—would you feel the same way if it were a mural of a charging bull and she'd been painted into it?

Di Modica may feel bad about his statue being part of a new message, but he set it up in a public place in what is effectively a heavier and more expensive version of graffiti tagging. Someone added a word in front of his marking, and the city isn't washing either off. Full stop.

Additional question after reading this—would you object to him going in and removing her himself (whether or not he'd do such a thing). After all, if I don't like what you tag in front of my graffiti I can paint over it or wash it off myself.

edited 16th Apr '17 10:56:25 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183229: Apr 16th 2017 at 11:00:47 PM

[up]

Additional question after reading this—would you object to him going in and removing her himself (whether or not he'd do such a thing). After all, if I don't like what you tag in front of my graffiti I can paint over it or wash it off myself.

He probably wishes he could, but the city ruled to keep the Fearless Girl around until February. I suspect that if the city hadn't done so, he'd have the statue moved personally.

I guess another layer to this is the fact that, since his work predates the 1990 Act and was originally erected without a permit, one could make an argument that the Charging Bull isn't really his (not say it's a good argument of course). It belongs to the city after they decided "hey, this thing we thought was an eyesore is raking in money for the city". And if the city decides that another statue placed in front of the Bull should stay around for a while...it stays. It also doesn't help that while the statue's meaning was altered, the statue itself was not.

Still, I do understand why he's upset and why he wants the statue removed.

edited 16th Apr '17 11:23:19 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#183230: Apr 16th 2017 at 11:51:12 PM

Didn't the bull guy leave it there illegally? I mean, I thought it was on at most a temporary permit. I don't necessarily see why he should get any say on a piece actually commissioned for the space and on a permanent permit.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#183231: Apr 16th 2017 at 11:58:25 PM

The article said it's been there since 1987, so I'd say it's there on a permanent basis at this point. (Though permanent doesn't mean the city government can't decide to move it for whatever reason.)

But yeah, legal issues aside, I think the guy's got a right to be annoyed here. The addition of the girl does change his work in a way he didn't intend, and was meant to do that, without consulting him. And, if the little girl ends up being permanent too (a year is long enough for people to get attached to the thing) then it does so on a permanent basis and he might try taking it to court. The comparison to graffiti is probably not nearly as apt as was suggested, as there's usually an understanding that it's much more temporary than other things. What with it being spray paint and all, and that stuff fades away if it doesn't get washed off. A statue has much more permanent intentions.

edited 16th Apr '17 11:58:57 PM by AceofSpades

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183232: Apr 17th 2017 at 12:01:43 AM

Bottom line: While I sympathize with him, the law really isn't on his side.

It'd be kind of funny though if the negotiations to deal with the statue are only finally resolved in January 2018 or something.

Edit:

BTW, does anyone else think this conversation should be moved to the U.S. Culture thread if it continues?

edited 17th Apr '17 12:39:55 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183233: Apr 17th 2017 at 1:05:50 AM

Sorry for the double post but it's a different topic:

Since this thread started talking about the Religious Right...

Trump's new tax bill might include a repeal of the Johnson Amendment.

This is...bad. Essentially it will allow churches to become taxpayer-funded super PA Cs.

Disgusted, but not surprised
StarOutlaw Since: Nov, 2010
#183235: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:06:58 AM

It's really irritating me the way the mainstream media is ignoring the white supremacy and treating the protests like they're normal. I understand that news organizations have an obligation to try and be unbiased, but this is ridiculous. Like, I honestly wonder if they're actually afraid of losing fascist viewers/readers. It fucking disgusts me, all of it.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183236: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:26:32 AM

Fascists and communists fighting in the streets again unfortunately seems to be the new normal these days.

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#183237: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:28:10 AM

"communists"

And you base this on...?

i'm tired, my friend
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183238: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:30:00 AM

[up] well strictly speaking anarchists, but I'm running with the 1930's analogy.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#183239: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:37:22 AM

[up][up] Saying it's overly normal it's quite cynic if you don't show evidence of other similar occurrences you know.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183240: Apr 17th 2017 at 6:59:40 AM

I'm Talking more in terms of popular perception (and thus media portrayal) than reality, at least so far.

edited 17th Apr '17 7:00:04 AM by CaptainCapsase

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#183241: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:08:25 AM

[up] Even so, that won't mean a complete downfall of the nation.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#183243: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:41:31 AM

Additional question after reading this—would you object to him going in and removing her himself (whether or not he'd do such a thing). After all, if I don't like what you tag in front of my graffiti I can paint over it or wash it off myself.

If someone paints a graffiti at the wall of my house without asking permission, I get to decide if it stays or not. Not the artist. I also get to decide if an additional graffiti by someone else stays or not. In this case the owner is the city. If he didn't want it to be owned by the public, maybe he shouldn't have put in public space without invitation and permission.

edited 17th Apr '17 7:42:59 AM by Antiteilchen

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#183244: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:42:19 AM

Hey the White House Easter egg role is going on right now. Trump seems to be making a fool of himself as usual.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#183245: Apr 17th 2017 at 7:44:54 AM

@Removing the Johnson Amendment: That would be bad for Republicans, actually. Beyond Evangelicals and Mormons, most officially Recognized Religions in the USA tend to skew to the left, not the right. From the Catholic Church, to several Jewish Sects, to Scientology and Satanism, to Liberal Evangelicals (that do exist). The Democrats would gain a huge amount of Money, and at worst, they'd probably be less friendly to Abortion (which would be bad, don't get me wrong). The Republicans would not benefit from this, and thus, I doubt they will try to remove the Johnson Amendment.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#183246: Apr 17th 2017 at 8:10:52 AM

[up]It would really help the Dems at the local level in particular, while they don't have the megachurches on their side, a lot of smaller ones skew to the Dems if only because of welfare and such.

And that's not getting into all the non-Christian groups who, all policy positions aside, swing Democrat because the other side all but considers them 2nd class citizens.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#183247: Apr 17th 2017 at 10:14:37 AM

[up][up] While the majority of American Catholics lean left, the hierarchy has a split personality. Hard right on social issues (They were anti-abortion looong before it was a thing among evangelical Protestants) but skewing left on economic issues.

Trump delenda est
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#183248: Apr 17th 2017 at 10:52:29 AM

The Catholic Church hierarchy also tends to stay aloof for electoral politics to some extent. I doubt that the Holy See allows for direct donations to partisan entities.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#183249: Apr 17th 2017 at 10:59:03 AM

That and I don't think they allow campaign contributions from organizations not based in the US.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#183250: Apr 17th 2017 at 11:06:02 AM

The Catholic Church is weird in that its middle management is conservative while the Pope and most American Catholics are comparatively liberal. I mean, even your average American bishop is going to look vaguely reasonable when compared to a loony American baptist congregation.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."

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