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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#183076: Apr 15th 2017 at 2:07:05 PM

The problem with implementing it at a state level is that you end up with out of state people taking advantage of the service without contributing to it. I am not sure if there is a constitutional way to force contribution before participation.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#183077: Apr 15th 2017 at 2:10:30 PM

[up]I imagine it would be as simple as "you need your NY state insurance card or some other NY ID to be presented at the point of service before you are covered".

That would probably be the more easily solvable problem of trying to do single-payer at the state level.

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#183078: Apr 15th 2017 at 2:34:23 PM

I'm pretty sure single payer only makes financial sense when it is implemented on a large scale.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#183079: Apr 15th 2017 at 2:36:54 PM

That and they would have no choice but to ration care, and even with higher taxes on the rich and corporations in CA and NY, you'd still likely have some premiums paid.

I know for instance in the Canadian system they definitely don't cover dental, vision and prescription. Some provinces have premiums to be paid too. And even then it's not really "free". But if you're low income or under 18 there are many things covered or subsidized. Maybe not as much as one would hope or think, but certainly on par with Medicaid.

That's the stuff a lot of people don't talk about, the nitty gritty of how most single payer system works. It's a hell of a lot more complicated under the hood.

edited 15th Apr '17 2:37:18 PM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#183080: Apr 15th 2017 at 3:23:40 PM

[up]Although perscription drugs are much less expensive in Canada, so they have less need for them to be covered.

Adam Savage is participating in the March For Science.

https://mobile.twitter.com/donttrythis/status/846410075577073664

edited 15th Apr '17 3:29:48 PM by megaeliz

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#183081: Apr 15th 2017 at 3:30:17 PM

@Capsace: Spencer is a genuine Nazi, though.

Personally, if you're going to work with groups like that, I'd say to do it backchannel. Tell Spencer to mobilize his party for singlepayer healthcare, you mobilize your party for the same, and avoid unnecessary Hitler Ate Sugar arguments while pushing it through. Refuse to legitimize the Nazis in public, however.

@others: That said, being able to work with political opponents of all stripes is a necessary trait in America's unique Congress, due to the way we have everything set up. It's not seen as the default when votes go strictly along party lines, like it is in the Westminster system, since the intent of our designers was to avoid enshrining partisanism into law. A strict cordon sanitaire isn't sensible because Congresscritters are free to vote on an issue by issue basis.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#183082: Apr 15th 2017 at 3:38:11 PM

Here's the actual tweet. All it suggests is that if even the alt-right favor single-payer, then it cant be as unpopular and impossible as some people think. I see no suggestion of "doing business with", "breaking bread" or compromising core values at all.

I have to call it out- there is a distinct anti-Sanders bias among some people here that goes beyond being reasonable...

This is almost literally Hitler Ate Sugar. It even shares some resemblance to a witchhunt for "deviant beliefs". I believe that I detect an intolerance for diversity of tactics or values on the left that deviates from some standard of "purity", calling into question the integrity of anyone who might cross some sort of invisible line. It reeks of No True Scotsman, and He Who Fights Monsters.

I really hope I'm wrong. Lets be careful, and apply the same level of skepticism to ourselves that we apply to others.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#183083: Apr 15th 2017 at 3:57:19 PM

[up]I've noticed that too.

I admire Bernie Sanders honesty and and persistence. He has been fighting for the middle and lower classes since he was mayor of Berlington, and has stuck to his beliefs harder than any politician I have ever seen.

Also this is great, trump running away from Tax March protesters.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/328980-trump-takes-detour-back-to-mar-a-lago-avoiding-tax-march?amp

edited 15th Apr '17 4:10:21 PM by megaeliz

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#183084: Apr 15th 2017 at 4:24:18 PM

That and they would have no choice but to ration care

That's true under pretty much any system, including the one we've got right now.

Otherwise I am also kind of irked at certain "Medicare for All" supporters who clearly don't understand how Medicare works in the US.

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#183085: Apr 15th 2017 at 4:25:01 PM

X-Post from NK thread:

I am hearing [1] that North Korea tried and failed to launch a missile. Anyone heard anything on social media? I am not well connected there.

edited 15th Apr '17 4:26:03 PM by ViperMagnum357

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183086: Apr 15th 2017 at 4:56:02 PM

Here's the actual tweet. All it suggests is that if even the alt-right favor single-payer, then it cant be as unpopular and impossible as some people think. I see no suggestion of "doing business with", "breaking bread" or compromising core values at all.

I have to call it out- there is a distinct anti-Sanders bias among some people here that goes beyond being reasonable... This is almost literally Hitler Ate Sugar. It even shares some resemblance to a witchhunt for "deviant beliefs". I believe that I detect an intolerance for diversity of tactics or values on the left that deviates from some standard of "purity", calling into question the integrity of anyone who might cross some sort of invisible line. It reeks of No True Scotsman, and He Who Fights Monsters. I really hope I'm wrong. Lets be careful, and apply the same level of skepticism to ourselves that we apply to others.

Thank you. I was about to point out that this was absurd from the actual tweet.

Some of the people here seem unaware of their own hypocrisy that they are knee deep in.

Accusations of splitting the party in two, demonizing the other candidate, latching onto little things to make them bigger and worse than they actually are, ignoring their own candidate's flaws, unwillingness to bend over for the other wing etc.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#183087: Apr 15th 2017 at 5:08:12 PM

Spinning off this, and the WMG from earlier in the day, what of 2018/2020 election theme based upon this old gem:

With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in, to bind up the nation's wounds, to care for him who shall have borne the battle and for his widow and his orphan, to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace among ourselves and with all nations.
Tis not the civil war, but this seems like the message for the times. And I can't think of anything else that puts it as eloquently.

[up][up]And the NK thread has been updated.

edited 15th Apr '17 5:10:10 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#183088: Apr 15th 2017 at 5:38:13 PM

You know? I'll have to agree with the observation that the thread can be a bit harsher on Sanders than he deserves (although I have to say this time the outrage seems pretty justified). And, I'll repeat this thing I said yesterday, because the damn fight is probably starting again:

Before this heats up, can we stop re-litigating the primary? Yes, the specific subset of the Sanders camp that fits the definition of Bernie Bro and the r/ESS camp have been rather unhelpful by pissing-off anybody in the other side of the Democrat camp by treating anybody who supports the other candidate as the worst stereotype of the [other candidate]-voter, and digging up all the (real or made up) dirt on the candidate they disliked at every chance they got.

And yes, in this case the Bernie side (again, that specific subset of them) is more responsible of causing problems by virtue of being the sore losers here, before anyone starts accusing me of golden mean fallacy.

BUT THE FUCKING PRIMARY IS OVER. So if someone from the other side starts something, it's on you to cut it: debate them when they make an argument, but if no one else is doing it, don't start with a pithy remark about "they don't get to 'x' with the responsibility they have for this mess" or "if they followed my side everything would be perfect now".

Also, venting is OK (unless mods say otherwise), but please make it clear it's venting.

edited 15th Apr '17 5:41:19 PM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#183089: Apr 15th 2017 at 6:17:16 PM

[up] thank you for articulating this more clearly than I ever could.

The people who you are upset with a just a vocal minority even among Sanders supporters, I imagine mostly made up of teenagers and college kids. The people who are going to make a difference are the people who are attending town halls, advocating about issues and candidates, demanding that their elected officials listen to them, and voting in local elections.

edited 15th Apr '17 6:18:49 PM by megaeliz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183090: Apr 15th 2017 at 9:34:47 PM

[up] The reason for the irritation this time however isn't because of the antics of a vocal minority. This was Sanders or someone on his staff sharing something on their twitter account that they probably shouldn't have.

edited 15th Apr '17 9:51:34 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#183091: Apr 15th 2017 at 9:59:29 PM

And the sheer hypocrisy.

If this were literally any other democrat, there would be outrage and a bitchfest from outlets like TYT and Secular Talk

New Survey coming this weekend!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#183092: Apr 15th 2017 at 10:15:48 PM

You know? I'll have to agree with the observation that the thread can be a bit harsher on Sanders than he deserves (although I have to say this time the outrage seems pretty justified). And, I'll repeat this thing I said yesterday, because the damn fight is probably starting.

It's less the harshness towards Sanders and more the irritating harshness towards Sanders supporters.

It's this thread's favorite target after Trump supporters.

Like some people here like to randomly bash Sanders supporters.

I'm fine with bashing the Bernie Bros. that went over to Trump.

But this thread is determined to alienate the people on the left.

It kind of reminds me of the DNC.

edited 15th Apr '17 11:43:18 PM by MadSkillz

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from πŸ€” Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#183093: Apr 15th 2017 at 10:25:15 PM

[up] Well the 2 candidates did have two things in common:

  • They were atypical compared to their party.
  • Populism, tying into the above.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183094: Apr 15th 2017 at 10:28:22 PM

[up][up] Don't forget the Bernie Bros. who either didn't vote or wrote in a third candidate.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from πŸ€” Since: Nov, 2012
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#183096: Apr 15th 2017 at 10:34:55 PM

[up] Which is odd since he wasn't President yet when that happened.

Disgusted, but not surprised
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#183097: Apr 15th 2017 at 10:39:02 PM

[up][up] Pretty sure he's, for once, completely correct. Can't have the leader of the free world constantly tied up in legal issues for idiotic reasons.

New Survey coming this weekend!
TheRoguePenguin Since: Jul, 2009
#183098: Apr 16th 2017 at 12:36:36 AM

[up]It's probably an assumption that the president wouldn't do something so stupid as to land himself in such hot water. Incidentally, that logic didn't work for Bill Clinton, or at least he didn't think to try it. He settled, but the case certainly went father than the one Trump is trying to weasel out of, and on shakier ground. Trump's words are his own worst enemy here.

edited 16th Apr '17 12:38:07 AM by TheRoguePenguin

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#183099: Apr 16th 2017 at 12:52:20 AM

And the sheer hypocrisy.

You're really going to talk about hypocracy? Come on Fox, you're a nice enough person but even you have to be able to recognise the huge anti-Sanders bias you have that can lead to some pretty blatantly hypocracy, Sanders could word for word quote Hillary and you'd still find a way to scream that he was trying to sell us out to Nazis.

Now onto the rise of left-wing fake news, logically the next target is centerist fake news for the died in the wool centerists, things like articles claiming that Sanders and Trump are working together to screw over minorities. I'd advise thouse committed centerists in the thread to make sure they don't accidentally end up sharing such fake news if it does start to show up.

β€œAnd the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael β€œIf the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#183100: Apr 16th 2017 at 4:29:59 AM

No one is saying that Sanders is trying to work with Nazis.

But his tweet shows that, once again, he's racially tone deaf.

Also where the fuck were these single payer supporting Republicans 8 years ago?


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