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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#183051: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:18:48 AM

Or maybe it's the base rate fallacy in action - well educated people will consume more media and information, period. Including bogus one.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#183052: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:20:03 AM

[up][up]While that is true Sanders and Trump take it to a different level.

Pseudopartition Screaming Into The Void from The Cretaeceous Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
Screaming Into The Void
#183053: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:20:15 AM

Speaking of which, anyone know how reliable The Daily Beast is? Because this article on Mike Cernovich might be relevant. I'm already reluctant to link the actual article, because they never fired Nico Hines like they should have.

Anyway, Cernovich (popular right wing creep) suggests he's going to burn the place down if Bannon is fired, but given how much he pushed the ridiculous "Pizzagate" thing I don't really think that speaks to his competence.

edited 15th Apr '17 11:20:39 AM by Pseudopartition

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#183054: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:24:36 AM

Cernovich has also pushed the "The Syria gas attacks were photoshopped" story, so yeah. Scumbag.

Also, hearing that a few executions in Arkansas have been halted by a court ruling. Apparently Arkansas had lied to the pharmaceutical company who made the substances the state was about to use for the executions about what the medicals were to be used for. I notice that half of them were black.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#183055: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:24:42 AM

@Kotsya: I don't know. If anything the thread has sometimes expressed the opposite sentiment; holding greater suspicion and even contempt for him that Trump and his cohorts.

Then again that may just be down to Trump being a known quantity where as Sanders is genuinely much less predictable.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#183056: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:25:05 AM

The issue with the US education system is that it doesn't exactly teach critical thinking. It teaches making the cross at the right place.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183057: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:36:12 AM

@Septimus: He's a piece of work all right, but that doesn't mean I would turn up my nose at his or anyone else's vote in a hypothetical ballot initiative on healthcare reform.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#183058: Apr 15th 2017 at 11:51:22 AM

The US education system—at least as far as Metro Atlanta goes—teaches critical thinking on certain tracks.
I remember sitting through public health classes where the rest of the class brazenly slept through the entire lesson just as well as AP courses where we discussed the social and philosophical arguments in books (old and new) and current events and accurately researching and arguing one's own POV on a topic as if we weren't stupid children. Also, we heard the actual uses of chemistry and advanced math from teachers who liked the subject.
By university, though you still don't learn real civics (as opposed to the theme park version) unless you're in a dedicated public management/policy program.

edited 15th Apr '17 11:53:17 AM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
PolarPhantom Since: Jun, 2012
#183059: Apr 15th 2017 at 12:40:13 PM

Well, I shall paraphrase Dumbledore: "I am very clever, and so my mistakes are much worse."

Smart people can be victim to fallacy, sadly.

I would agree that I would not get into bed with a Neo Nazi. I might break bread with a conservative, but not with Hitler or Palpatine. Too dangerous. I know it's better to have them pissing out of the tent than into it, but there's gotta be a line, right?

Yes, I am aware Sanders' may not actually be teaming up with Nazis. This is just a personal view of things.

edited 17th Apr '17 12:14:21 PM by PolarPhantom

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183060: Apr 15th 2017 at 12:50:47 PM

[up] If doing so is necessary to achieve your objectives, you swallow your pride and do what needs to be done. Which in the case of world war 2 involved "breaking bread" with Joseph Stalin for the allies.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#183061: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:17:05 PM

I don't actually think people disagree with you. The pushback looks more based upon: breaking bread with neo-nazis will grant us support and maybe at acceptable cost, but it links our movement with theirs (even if superficially—the optics are damaging) and by so doing "legitimizes" their movement, therefore making said neo-nazis and their policy preferences a long term problem.
If the republic's on the verge of extinction, the latter may not be much concern, but, in the past, this very action is what pushed fragile republics over the edge. In any case, tis not like the best course of action can be experimentally proven—before it's too late anyway.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#183062: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:19:32 PM

[up][up]Even universal healthcare is worth sacrificing if it means denying Neo-Nazis a seat at the table. And this isn't World War II — the fate of Western Civilization isn't at stake. Sanders is grubbing for the worst possible allies like a fucking mongrel begging for food with far lesser stakes, and if we follow in his footsteps, we're going to pay for it

edited 15th Apr '17 1:47:53 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#183063: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:24:05 PM

And he gets to get away with it because in the eyes of many he can literally do no wrong.

Ugh. This goddamn hypocrisy grates my nerves.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Mely OMGWTFBBQ from under your bed Since: Apr, 2016 Relationship Status: Armed with the Power of Love
OMGWTFBBQ
#183064: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:25:29 PM

Please don't compare politics to the World War Two. It's tasteless to use the tragedy of millions for your petty debates.

If Sanders and his ilk are serious about this thing, it's a sign of their moral bankruptcy. We have to make compromises from time to time, but the line needs to be drawn somewhere. Pragmatism is all well and good, but enabling Spencer? Really? Is Sander's camp this desperate to be relevant? Is the WWC vote all you care about? If you guys really are willing to make that kind of alliance, you can count me and other moderates out.

edited 15th Apr '17 1:26:36 PM by Mely

There's a moment we make a decision Not to cower and crash to the ground The moment we face our worst demons Our courage found
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183065: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:26:43 PM

[up] I'll have to go hunting for whatever tweet actually prompted this, but I suspect you're overreacting to an attempt to justify Sanders' assertion that single payer healthcare is broadly popular among the American public by linking to articles suggesting surprising levels of support for such policies among the alt right.

edited 15th Apr '17 1:28:14 PM by CaptainCapsase

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#183066: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:28:26 PM

[up][up]And count out the actual progressives as well, on account of, you know, progress, as opposing to torching the system because you lost; not coincidentally, something we were worried about when we were convinced the Neo-Nazis were going to lose.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#183067: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:31:54 PM

@Century Eye: After thinking about it more, I'd actually say that the risk is more the opposite. That trying to "break bread" with neo-nazis would delegitimize the movement of social democratic reform rather then to legitimize the fascist.

Single-payer healthcare is still associated with the "radical left" in the states while fascism already has it's candidate in the White House (even if some fascist think he's flaking out).

The Left has far more to loss from such a gamble then the neo-nazis have to gain, which probably why it won't/shouldn't happen.

edited 15th Apr '17 1:32:38 PM by Mio

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#183068: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:33:52 PM

What article are you talking about?

Indivisible group in Virginia makes town hall diorama made of peeps.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/328957-protesters-create-mock-town-hall-with-peeps?amp

[down] thanks

edited 15th Apr '17 1:39:25 PM by megaeliz

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183069: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:37:09 PM

So yeah, the article in question that caused this massive stir was this.

I'm honestly not sure where the idea that this was calling for a coalition between the progressive left and the alt-right, just arguing that Trump supporters are not totally unreachable.

edited 15th Apr '17 1:44:12 PM by CaptainCapsase

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#183070: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:41:27 PM

The article is equating Sander's Medicare for everyone, with this guy's Medicare for everyone if you're white.

edited 15th Apr '17 2:35:15 PM by megaeliz

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183071: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:50:09 PM

@Mio: For the record I'm not proposing "breaking bread" with the alt-right as in the real dyed in the wool neo-fascists. I do think this thread has a tendency of thinking all of Trump's supporters are those kinds of people.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#183072: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:50:42 PM

[up][up]Huh, one can tell alot about an article based upon the picture it uses...This paragraph alone makes me question their expertise on anything note 

"Both ends of the political spectrum — the far left under Bernie Sanders and, improbable as it may seem, the far right under the likes of Richard Spencer — are pushing single-payer not only as the solution to guaranteeing humane health care but as a self-regulating system to rein in spiraling costs.

Unfortunately, it is the middle of the political spectrum that controls Congress, and they remain in the pocket of drug companies and health insurers that profit so richly from the current, inefficient hodgepodge of coverage."


A nitpick, but CA and NY have comparable populations and economies (by raw GDP) to Canada or any given Scandanavian state. What's it mean to say they lack the resources for single payer policies?
@Mio That seems valid to me too. Something just like that happened to the PS in France.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#183073: Apr 15th 2017 at 1:53:29 PM

[up] It's not so much that they lack the resources as much as it is somewhat difficult to implement this sort of thing on a state level.

@@Mio: For the record I'm not proposing "breaking bread" with the alt-right as in the real dyed in the wool neo-fascists in the sense of offering any meaningful concessions to try and gain their support. If they will vote for single payer ballot referendums and the like however, I don't see any reason to toss those plans away simply because of that support.

I'm honestly not even sure what this whole argument is about.

edited 15th Apr '17 2:04:05 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#183074: Apr 15th 2017 at 2:05:28 PM

[up][up]The difference between say, Sweden and Denmark, and New York and California as far as implementing Single-Payer is concerned is that the former are independent sovereign nations while the latter are not.

While still being in the Union NY and California would not be able to levy enough to taxes to fund a true single-payer system, never-mind that they would not have a lot of means to keep private health companies, other states, or even the federal government from trying to undermine their system.

[up]That was just something I threw out their as a response to those who thought such a scenario would legitimize the fascists, nothing more.

edited 15th Apr '17 2:07:38 PM by Mio

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#183075: Apr 15th 2017 at 2:07:04 PM

[up]&[up][up]Aye. You know, "breaking bread" could be the bones of a 2020 slogan given the state of the union by then...

More Fast Times at the ATL Warring Republicans try to unite against Ossoff in Georgia’s Sixth

Fractious Georgia Republicans tried to unite behind a “stop Jon Ossoff” movement ahead of Tuesday’s special election to represent a suburban Atlanta district, with party leaders urging voters to stream to the polls and prevent an upset victory by the Democrat.

Republicans face a daunting enthusiasm gap in the 18-candidate race to represent the 6th District, and the leading GOP contenders have spent the final days feuding with each other.

At a GOP voter drive in the district’s western flank of Marietta, about 30 volunteers and officials turned out to make calls and listen to several likely Republican statewide candidates.

“This is personal,” said Attorney General Chris Carr, who lives in Dunwoody. “We have great candidates. But whoever you support is better than the other side. They are trying to embarrass us, but let’s show them this district is Republican red.”

At a GOP breakfast on the district’s eastern De Kalb outskirts, state Sen. Fran Millar criticized Democrats who think it’s a “done deal that this kid’s going to become the Congressman.”

“I’ll be very blunt: These lines were not drawn to get Hank Johnson’s protégé to be my representative. And you didn’t hear that,” said Millar. “They were not drawn for that purpose, OK? They were not drawn for that purpose.”

Ossoff, a 30-year-old ex-congressional aide, has marshaled thousands of volunteers – and droves of paid staffers – to blanket the district.

State Rep. Sam Teasley of Marietta said Ossoff’s platform is chock-full of “left wing priorities.”

“The national media would love to make this a story about a turning tide,” said Teasley. “But we aren’t going to let that happen.”

Georgia GOP chair John Padgett compared the surge of attention around Ossoff’s campaign to the failed 2014 bids of “little blue-headed folks” Jason Carter and Michelle Nunn.

“What got them beat is you. You got out and outworked them,” he said. “And you’ll do it again.”


Samuel L. Jackson on Georgia vote: ‘Stop Donald Trump’
The ad's on the article page, short, and quite blunt.

Gingrich makes late push for Hill in Georgia special election
Former House Speaker Newt Gingrich made a late push for Republican Judson Hill in the race to represent a suburban Atlanta district, declaring in a robo-call sent to thousands of voters that the former state senator the “only one who has proven he will fight for us.”

“If we’re going to seize on this opportunity to move America in a bold new direction and reverse the last eight years of decline,” he said, “we must vote for the only person with the proven record who can defeat Nancy Pelosi’s candidate, Jon Ossoff.”

edited 15th Apr '17 2:08:18 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives

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