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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#181626: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:43:28 PM

[up][up] South America has suffered from a lot of left-wing populism.

edited 6th Apr '17 8:43:37 PM by Bat178

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#181627: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:45:19 PM

[up][up][up][up][up] Populism is the Political Philosophy that focuses to empower the Populace over the Elite through programs and policies that benefit the Populace over the Elite. A Utopia is an idealized society, first proposed (potentially as a satire) by a Catholic Theologian.

Populism aims to create a Utopia for the Common Man, but every Political Philosophy aims for some form of Utopia, and none have reached them yet.

And Trump sucks as a Populist, not just to the Average American, but to even Right-Wing Americans (at this point).

edited 6th Apr '17 8:47:24 PM by DingoWalley1

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#181628: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:45:38 PM

[up][up] Well yes, but South America is not the United States.

edited 6th Apr '17 8:45:54 PM by CaptainCapsase

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181629: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:46:45 PM

Honestly, I don't think there was any master plan here at all. It was simply stupidity and egos clashing.

1. Trump confidently claims that the USA won't do anything to Assad and work with him and Russia to defeat "the terrorists". Everything is great in his mind.

2. Assad gets too big for his britches after that claim and decides "Hell yeah, guess I can break out the big guns." and unleashes chemical weapons. The same ones the Russians supposedly helped ensure he didn't have anymore.

3. Trump is humiliated. He has egg on his face. His muddled and confused attempts to deflect to Obama afterwards didn't help.

4. Trump has to salvage his ego and his image of strength somehow. So he decides on a missile strike without running it by anyone else.

Concerning populism:

It's not left or right-wing. It's a strategy to win votes by appealing to the "common people" and making promises that are usually more style than substance. Think of those kids who promised things like pizza for lunch everyday in the cafeteria and soda and candy machines in the hallways (back when such things weren't common) to win student council elections. That's populism.

And yes, one big problem with it is that it usually leads to anti-intellectualism, decrying the nay-saying experts who call bullshit on their unfeasible policies. "Project Fear" in the UK, anyone? Mao Zedong took it to the extreme of purging intellectuals in China. The resulting brain drain has had consequences for China that persist even to this day.

edited 6th Apr '17 8:49:57 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#181630: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:50:13 PM

I guess there are two spectrums here,

Power of Government: Authoritarianism VS. Libertarianism (Classical Anarchism)

Economic: Liberal VS conservitve

edited 6th Apr '17 8:51:11 PM by megaeliz

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#181631: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:51:57 PM

I should note that Russia did not take the weapons away from him themselves: the OPCW with the help of the US, Russia, and the Europeans did. Considering that he had over 1000 tons of the stuff (and that only a few pounds would have been needed for what happened at Khan Shaykun), it's reasonable to believe that they missed a few (or more likely either Assad hid some, they made a new batch (somehow), or they found a stockpile that had, in 2013, not been under their control).

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#181632: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:52:48 PM

[up][up][up] Populism strictly speaking is appealing directly to the general population (or a decisive sub-segment of it) rather than to the "elites" of society and trusting on their opinions to filter down, which is what's traditionally done in democracies. It's a very powerful force when unleashed, and can have both extremely positive and negative consequences depending on whether the populist faction is prepared to temper their firebrand rhetoric with pragmatism when actually in power. In the sense that they were fundamentally driven by populism, New-Deal era America and Nazi Germany can be said to be two sides of the same coin.

edited 6th Apr '17 8:54:44 PM by CaptainCapsase

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#181633: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:54:22 PM

So my current takeway from all of this: Serious, but not world-endingly so, and life will continue to go on. No need to overreact here.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181634: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:55:20 PM

[up][up] Another problem is that it also tends to decry the experts too, not just the "elites". Or rather, the experts are branded as "elites" regardless of how rich and powerful they actually are. And when you don't listen to experts...

edited 6th Apr '17 8:55:34 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#181635: Apr 6th 2017 at 8:55:20 PM

[up][up] Probably. I'm much more worried about the Korean war resuming than a serious crisis in Syria emerging out of this.

[up] That's precisely what I mean by "tempered by pragmatism."

edited 6th Apr '17 8:56:41 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#181637: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:01:52 PM

I figured ISIS would be happy.

Do not obey in advance.
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#181638: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:03:34 PM

Does anyone follow John Pavlovites? He is pastor who writes some really inciteful articles from a Chistian perspective, on social issues, and pointing out the hypocrasy of conservative Chistians, epsecially those who voted for Trump.

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/04/06/crocodile-trumper-tears-and-dead-syrian-children/

http://johnpavlovitz.com/2017/04/04/the-monster-isnt-beneath-the-bed/

edited 6th Apr '17 9:12:54 PM by megaeliz

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181640: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:03:56 PM

The problem with populists is, if they do let a little thing like reality get in the way of pandering to the public, they risk losing public approval. Because then they're breaking their promises.

The populist is stuck between ignoring potential consequences of trying to fulfill unrealistic proposals to get elected, or facing up to them and losing votes.

The better ones are the ones who take the second option (pragmatism).

edited 6th Apr '17 9:05:07 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#181641: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:07:59 PM

@Capase: Same here, (though probably not quite as much as you,) but I also think this current little brouhaha in Syria might keep Trump busy enough that anything he wants to do in Korea will end up having to wait for a while. It may not help prevent him from continuing to escalate matters, but anything he does do may happen a lot more slowly than it would otherwise. If that makes any sense.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#181642: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:15:47 PM

@m84 You can be a pragmatic populist. They're not mutually exclusive.

edited 6th Apr '17 9:16:03 PM by MadSkillz

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181643: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:25:39 PM

A pragmatic populist is simply one who either doesn't make too many extreme and unrealistic promises or when faced with experts telling them that their proposals are bad ideas, actually listens to the experts.

Of course, doing either of those can cost the populist precious votes. So too many of them don't do either.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#181644: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:27:52 PM

I'm, of the opinion that populism works better on beings with a "tabula rasa" status, but this also means that populism would high a high failure rate when used by someone gunning for a 2nd term for the following reasons:

  • As mentioned before. Trump's lack of experience and flip-flopping make it easier for people to project their desires, but having actual power would cause their their true colors to be revealed. This ties into the anti-elite rhetoric, as having a position of power as high-profile as the presidency would make you by definition, part of the elite (even disregarding his millionaire status) will all the corruption, real or perceived, that entails. This means the onus is on them to walk the walk, now they they talked the talk, if they don't, break campaign promises, then their approval rating fails and the cycle begins anew
  • In this case, the populism is focused on a specific ideology, one that is for all intents and purposes, an infant (tantrums optional, but expected in this case tongue). What they stand for is narrow in scope which when combined with the projection, means that when Trump does something outside the scope of the alt-right ideology (like say repeal standards protecting their privacy) or willingly subvert their expectations (the airstrike) that meakes appealing to the same people difficult (but not impossible, since there will always be people who take a "My Idoelogy Right Or Wrong" mindset, Loyal to a fault)
  • Also a lot can change over 4 years. The ideology might grow out or mature (Unlikely) or it would implode, and possibly take out its neighbors in the process. People's priorities and ideology would also change. A populist must not only adapt to the fact that he is part of the elite that they despise, and now has a history, but also to shifting priorities by a fickle and unpleasable public. People might also come to regret the fulfillment of their goals for reasons ranging from Wanting Is Better Than Having to deep and personal regret for supporting the goal in question the first place, once the ramifications take hold

Overall I think that populism would be less effective a tool for seeking reelection, than for people trying to get elected in the first place. And that those that rely on it will fall to more grounded people or other "unestablished" populists. Oc course it all depends on how reasonable the populist's actual goals (and not the projection of goals) are.

edited 6th Apr '17 9:29:13 PM by MorningStar1337

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181645: Apr 6th 2017 at 9:29:11 PM

[up] Yeah, populism is usually connected to anti-establishment sentiment, along with anti-elitism. The real trouble starts when it also becomes anti-intellectualism. Y'know, like dismissing experts who try to warn people that certain promised proposals are terrible ideas as "ivory tower elites".

edited 6th Apr '17 9:30:56 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Guy01 Since: Mar, 2015
#181647: Apr 6th 2017 at 10:37:33 PM

So my current takeway from all of this: Serious, but not world-endingly so, and life will continue to go on. No need to overreact here.

hugs smile

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?
Aszur A nice butterfly from Pagliacci's Since: Apr, 2014 Relationship Status: Don't hug me; I'm scared
A nice butterfly
#181648: Apr 6th 2017 at 10:37:58 PM

Except for. You know.

Syrians.

It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#181649: Apr 6th 2017 at 10:44:28 PM

Well, if (and that's the operative word here) the US limits its strikes to SAA targets....I can't imagine things getting worse for them (though that bar is low) because of this.

edited 6th Apr '17 10:44:42 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#181650: Apr 6th 2017 at 10:54:38 PM

Any nationality with any decent Human being will be OK. grin

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.

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