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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#181176: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:08:04 AM

My own view of inequality is that I've never really minded the idea that people earn more in and of itself - but the people at the absolute bottom shouldn't live in such extreme poverty that they don't have access to basic things like health care, sanitation, food, and just a good chance to move up and make their lives better regardless of their gender, sexuality, and race.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#181177: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:08:39 AM

And in that article you quote, within the sections you yourself bolded, he lists the American occupation of Japan as evidence of America acting like "The Godfather". The Empire of Japan declared war on the United States of America, not the other way around. It launched a sneak attack on an American naval base at Pearl Harbour (you may have heard about it) and killed three thousand American servicemen. It then invaded America's possessions in the Philippines, killed thousands more soldiers and sailors in combat, and subjected those that it had captured to nigh unimaginable tortures and deprivations. It also invaded the Aleutian Islands, bringing the IJA and IJN within spitting distance of America's continental possession in Alaska. But sure, Japan was never a direct threat to US interests. That's not even getting into, mind, what the Japanese did in China, where they murdered somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30 million Chinese (we don't have the full number because even now we're still counting), experimented on captured civilians with the Black Death, engaged in a campaign of genocidal rape unequaled in scale to this day, and scorched a number of cities, including Nanking, off the face of the earth. I cannot imagine that Chomsky—or you—are unaware of this fact. So, that begs the question: why is he—and why are you?—acting as an apologist for Imperial Japan? Because in trying to equate the Pacific War to the Vietnam War or the Iraq War that's what he is doing, and that's what you are doing in sharing his vapid opinion. The Empire of Japan was fascistic military junta that wracked up tens of millions of bodies in an insane attempt to conquer all of Asia. It also directly attacked the territory and military of the United States in a way that no other nation has done since the goddamn Confederacy. So, with that in mind, why is Chomsky defending them, and why are you sharing his defense of them with the rest of the thread?

@Ambar Spare me the whining.

First off, it's not not an article with Chomsky. This is some fringe leftist article from someone else that is referencing some ideas by Chomsky and putting their own spin on it. I don't really know what Chomsky thinks of that.

The point of it is was my demonstration of how they think the US operates and I didn't actually say I agree, now did I? You can also reference someone and not agree with everything they say. Amazing, right?

And I'm not equating Japan with anything. It's just intellectually dishonest to cut out words from a quote to make it look better whether I agree or disagree with it.

It's not like I disagree with what you're saying but you are jumping to conclusions of whatever my thoughts may be and trying to score easy points by building up arguments I wasn't making to score easy points.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:14:57 AM by MadSkillz

justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#181178: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:13:14 AM

[up][up] What does gender, sexuality, or race have anything to do with it? If you're poor, you're poor. Being black or white or bigender or transhuman or whatever it is doesn't change that you're poor.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#181179: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:13:17 AM

Spare me the whining.

No. When people share horseshit that defends dictatorships with millions of dead on their ledgers I will raise every objection that I can. Because that is an utterly revolting thing to do, and it cannot be brushed off with cries of "But America!"

As for whether you yourself agree with what you're sharing, if you don't, you'd best tell everyone. Especially when you are sharing it as part of a conversation in which you have been agreeing with the people you quote.

What does gender, sexuality, or race have anything to do with it? If you're poor, you're poor. Being black or white or bigender or transhuman or whatever it is doesn't change that you're poor.

Bullshit. People who do not fall into the category of "white straight men" are notably more likely to find themselves disadvantaged. This is a statistical reality.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:14:41 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

HextarVigar That guy from The Big House Since: Feb, 2015
That guy
#181180: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:15:08 AM

ISIS wants everyone who isn't them dead, so their opinion of Trump doesn't have quite the sting it could.

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#181181: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:18:54 AM

No. When people share horseshit that defends dictatorships with millions of dead on their ledgers I will raise every objection that I can. Because that is an utterly revolting thing to do, and it cannot be brushed off with cries of "But America!" As for whether you yourself agree with what you're sharing, if you don't, you'd best tell everyone. Especially when you are sharing it as part of a conversation in which you have been agreeing with the people you quote.

Where was the defense of Imperial Japan's dictatorship? Please point that out to me.

And I never said I agreed with the people who wrote the article. You're jumping from a to d here without getting to b and c first.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:23:05 AM by MadSkillz

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#181182: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:23:06 AM

What does gender, sexuality, or race have anything to do with it? If you're poor, you're poor. Being black or white or bigender or transhuman or whatever it is doesn't change that you're poor.

Lmfao. I'd rather be poor and white, than poor and black ANY fucking day of the week.

New Survey coming this weekend!
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181183: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:25:06 AM

Being poor sucks, but being poor and a member of a minority group sucks even more.

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#181184: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:26:00 AM

[up] Yep. Location matters too.

Imagine being poor and black in Iraq.

The context of your poverty matters.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:26:51 AM by MadSkillz

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#181186: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:29:03 AM

[up] I suppose so. The top richest overall nations are mostly white and European or Arab like Qatar and the UAE that got rich off of oil.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#181187: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:35:53 AM

I was under the impression that everyone here acknowledges that the ACA had flaws, and required substantive improvement. Was I wrong? One major problem with it was the gap between being poor enough to qualify for medicaid subsidies on the one hand, and working for a company large enough to provide an employer-funded healthcare benefit plan on the other. According to the Kaiser Foundation report I just linked to, there were 15 million of these people as recently as last year. That 15 million figure does not include people who were eligible for benefits but didn't apply for them (there were 11 million of them).

As for globalization, plenty of studies show that the US middle class were disadvantaged relative to the rich or the poor of developing nations. "...The “winners” were the middle and upper classes of the relatively poor Asian countries and the global top 1%. The (relative) “losers” were the people in the lower and middle parts of rich countries’ income distributions, according to detailed household surveys data from more than 100 countries between 1988 and 2008." Here's another source.

The effect of Democratic Part platforms on the US Middle Class is more subjective and harder to reduce to a number, but there is a widespread perception, even on the left, that they have done more harm than good: "..Democrats simply don't consistently support concrete policies that help the broad working and middle classes. Half of them voted for the bankruptcy bill of 2005. They've done virtually nothing to stem the growth of monopolies and next to nothing to improve consumer protection in visible ways. They don't do anything for labor. They're soft on protecting Social Security. They bailed out the banks but refused to bail out underwater homeowners. Hell, they can't even agree to kill the carried interest loophole, a populist favorite if ever there was one." Here's another source.

Of course, intelligent people can disagree over the facts, or the interpretation of these facts. You may think that everything I just referenced is flat out wrong. Which is fine- but the real point is that there is an argument about it even on the left, so what should conservative middle class voters think? The main point that I am making is that people who might believe these things are not crazy, evil or hopelessly ignorant- they are just people who believe certain things. If you think those things are wrong, then present your argument. Calling it "lies" or "stupidity" is extremely unlikely to change their minds.

And I will repeat this point until I die- we can't win an election without recruiting at least some of them. The numbers just wont work for us. So it's far better, for our own interests, to continue to search for convincing arguments, in a language that the lower to middle class white conservative voters would understand.

I know it's hard, saving the world was never going to be easy.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:38:53 AM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181188: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:43:56 AM

[up]

Obamacare basically ignored them

We were arguing against that. We weren't claiming that the ACA is perfect.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:46:46 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#181189: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:46:02 AM

Then argue against it. Dont call it stupid or a lie. Because that just undermines our political leverage.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#181190: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:46:41 AM

[up]Right, so give me a plan on how to cut through this.

You and the other "leftists" insist that it's possible to penetrate their bubble.

Except there's an AI on their side that's designed specifically to keep it that way and expand it, and you don't. I even have doubts about some of your allies' ability to pass a Turing test.

Give me a plan that consists of more than "economic populism polled well with these guys!"

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#181191: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:48:43 AM

Why are waiting for someone else to come up with a plan? Why don't you start yourself? And you can begin by taking a deep breath, straightening your back, and allowing yourself to believe that it's possible.

And by the way, there is research on this.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:50:10 AM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#181192: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:49:10 AM

Except there's an AI on their side that's designed specifically to keep it that way and expand it, and you don't. I even have doubts about some of your allies' ability to pass a Turing test.

That's fucked up.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#181193: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:49:45 AM

Or we take the probably easier route and figure out how to work around their vote and get our people in power so we can start putting the screws to the Russians and dismantling that AI.

Oh really when?
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#181194: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:51:05 AM

How do you work around someone's vote in a democracy?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#181195: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:52:33 AM

[up] You get enough small blocks that make the big block look smaller. Obviously.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#181196: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:52:56 AM

Bolster our other demographics and outvote them and try to minimize the expansion of that bubble.

Oh really when?
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#181197: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:54:13 AM

[up][up][up]The same way the Republicans did: get them to be apathetic and stay home and not vote.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:54:27 AM by danime91

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#181198: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:58:00 AM

Right, so give me a plan on how to cut through this.

I actually made a list of how the Dems can connect better with the AMC (anxious middle class, what the so called WWC actually is) without selling out their principles, everyone ignored it in favour of yelling at Capsase.

It's a few pages back but I'll go grab it again for you guys.

Edit: Found it.

What can we offer Trump voters that might help move them towards the Democrats that does not take the form of selling out the interests of core Democratic voters?

  • A candidate that hasn't been subject to a forty year smear campaign.
  • A charismatic candidate.
  • A man.
  • Rural spending.
  • Jobs (no need to get specific, just say we will get them jobs)
  • Not being the party in power.
  • Someone who comes across as an outsider (they don't have to actually be one.)
  • Infrastructure spending.
  • Union rights.
  • An end to wasteful spending on oversees wars like [insert war Trump starts here].
  • Elderly care and other social services.
  • The return of rural services cut by Trump.
  • A candidate that won't waste their money on things like trips to his golf course and security for his tower.
  • The kind of messaging that you use to help a domestic violence victim see the light.
  • Talking about two of three big mistakes the Republicans have made.
  • Change.

Now a ton of that is superficial, some of it is vague, but that's okay. Sure each of the things I listed will only win over a few people, but we don't need that many people, one of thouse things might have been enough to win in November, all of thouse things could bring about a solid win.

edited 5th Apr '17 11:01:21 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#181199: Apr 5th 2017 at 11:01:17 AM

I love this thread. I regularly browse this thread and /pol/, for my daily dose of right and left.

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#181200: Apr 5th 2017 at 11:03:04 AM

/pol/ isn't right, it's outright Neo Nazism at this point.

Oh really when?

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