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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

RedSavant Since: Jan, 2001
#181151: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:14:18 AM

Anyone have a link to that list of policies the Obama WH and Congress set up for the WWC before the Republicans shut down Congress? I know I've seen it before.

It's been fun.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181152: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:15:36 AM

The ACA did help a bunch of them, not that they appreciated it. Or in the case of some of them, even knew that it and Obamacare were the same fucking thing. And globalization isn't what's screwing them. It's things like automation and the oh so precious "free market". The demand for the products they make just isn't what it was anymore.

Hell, the coal industry is arguably only alive today because of increased global trade. China is a big consumer of American coal.

edited 5th Apr '17 9:16:24 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#181153: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:17:30 AM

The Democrats did nothing for the WWC? Obamacare failed them?

The uninsured rate for Red Counties dropped disproportionately more than ANY other region in the country the minute Obamacare passed. Like it's not even close.

New Survey coming this weekend!
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#181154: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:18:12 AM

If Obama didn't do anything for them (which btw is complete bullshit of the highest caliber) it's because the Republicans actively prevented him from doing so. All the social aid programs and employment initiatives were a result of Democrat and progressive effort.

Matues Since: Sep, 2011
#181155: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:23:14 AM

In order to court the republicans without becoming the republicans, we'd need to get them to vote for the Dems without justifying their worldview.

The problem is that they've systematically shut themselves in such that it's impossible to use any reasonable argument to do so.

AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#181156: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:34:20 AM

I need to stop going to /pol/ whenever one of those developments happens and see what they are up too.

You can cross your bullshit and stupidity threshold in less than a minute.

Inter arma enim silent leges
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#181157: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:35:35 AM

As for the WWC 'left behind'; their complaint was never about the ACA or 'Obamacare' since a lot of them loved it. The complaint was that it benefited everyone, rather than benefiting the WWC at the expense of everyone else. A refrain that goes back the the New Deal, with the same fundamental, fundamentally incorrect belief that everything is and must a zero-sum game.

edited 5th Apr '17 9:36:11 AM by ViperMagnum357

justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#181158: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:38:10 AM

So, once democrats take control of the government again, where do they go from there? Presumably, the progressive agenda has a ending point.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#181159: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:39:09 AM

From the sounds of things, Bannon is only off the NSC, his position within the West Wing appears to be secure for now.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/05/politics/steve-bannon-white-house-national-security-council/index.html

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181160: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:41:29 AM

[up] That's what I was afraid would happen. Now he can just skulk in the shadows whispering sweet nothings in Trump's ear.

Bannon whispering in a sleeping Trump's ear: "Trump...Trump...Deport the Asians and Indians from Silicon Valley..."

Trump after waking: "...WTF, what are you doing in my bedroom? It's four in the morning!"

edited 5th Apr '17 9:42:16 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#181161: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:44:38 AM

[up]Pss Trump! Hey Trump! Wakey wakey Trump

What? I am trying to sleep here!

Wanna America Great Again? Deport all Latinos

Fine, fine write the executive order and I'll sign it tomorrow, just let me sleep I have golfing tomorrow

Inter arma enim silent leges
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#181162: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:48:05 AM

In actually good news, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Director of National Intelligence have also got their traditional spots back.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#181163: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:48:34 AM

I happen to think that the WWC voters who supported Trump had a point- and I hate Trump. It's not like the Democrats ever did anything for them economically. Obamacare basically ignored them, and globalization is killing them. Voting for Trump is like throwing a brick through the Mayor's house: "Are you paying attention now?"

And here we have the Great Lie of Trump supporters and Unicorn Brigaders alike. Obamacare massively dropped the insurance costs of poor whites across every deep red state. Millions of poor whites who previously had no insurance, are covered because of it. Why do you think so many of those same WWC voters, who pushed for Trump's election, suddenly went into a meltdown and started screaming at their representatives when they found out the ACA was going to be repealed? It's because the ACA has massively improved their lives in every meaningful way.

We heard from people at those town halls who talked about how they would now be dead without Obamacare. All those people were poor. Most of them were white. Many of them voted for Trump. And yet they were aghast when he tried to repeal the piece of legislation Obama had passed that would help them the most.

So, the question then becomes, why are you repeating this lie? Is it because you didn't know this? I sincerely hope it's not because you share the outlook of so many of those white voters that the only thing wrong with Obamacare is that it helps minorities too.

Chomsky and the fringe left never thought Americans were bad just that America's foreign policy operates based off of the mafia principle with America as The Godfather. It's the elites leading the country that are awful.

And in that article you quote, within the sections you yourself bolded, he lists the American occupation of Japan as evidence of America acting like "The Godfather".

The Empire of Japan declared war on the United States of America, not the other way around. It launched a sneak attack on an American naval base at Pearl Harbour (you may have heard about it) and killed three thousand American servicemen. It then invaded America's possessions in the Philippines, killed thousands more soldiers and sailors in combat, and subjected those that it had captured to nigh unimaginable tortures and deprivations. It also invaded the Aleutian Islands, bringing the IJA and IJN within spitting distance of America's continental possession in Alaska. But sure, Japan was never a direct threat to US interests.

That's not even getting into, mind, what the Japanese did in China, where they murdered somewhere in the neighbourhood of 30 million Chinese (we don't have the full number because even now we're still counting), experimented on captured civilians with the Black Death, engaged in a campaign of genocidal rape unequaled in scale to this day, and scorched a number of cities, including Nanking, off the face of the earth.

I cannot imagine that Chomsky—or you—are unaware of this fact. So, that begs the question: why is he—and why are you?—acting as an apologist for Imperial Japan? Because in trying to equate the Pacific War to the Vietnam War or the Iraq War that's what he is doing, and that's what you are doing in sharing his vapid opinion.

The Empire of Japan was fascistic military junta that wracked up tens of millions of bodies in an insane attempt to conquer all of Asia. It also directly attacked the territory and military of the United States in a way that no other nation has done since the goddamn Confederacy. So, with that in mind, why is Chomsky defending them, and why are you sharing his defense of them with the rest of the thread?

edited 5th Apr '17 9:54:11 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#181164: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:48:58 AM

I don't think we are ever going to be rid of Bannon unless Trump's out, but I think the fewer institutions Bannon has a direct say in, the better. Yes, Bannon still has Trump's ear- but Trump is fighting with guys like Mattis over fucking staffing issues.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#181165: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:49:08 AM

Doesn't mean much when Cheeto will probably ignore there advise in favor of Kushner, Bannon, and the rest of his cretin administration.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#181167: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:51:16 AM

"Presumably the progressive agenda has an ending point."

Sure, but it doesn't really matter. New concepts and technology will move that end-point. It doesn't help that the US is significantly behind pretty much everyone else when it comes to things like healthcare.

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#181168: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:53:04 AM

Trump Defends Bill O'Reily Sex Scandal

Mr. Trump criticized media outlets, including The New York Times, for failing to adequately cover the Rice controversy — while singling out Fox News and the host Bill O’Reilly for praise, despite reports this week that the veteran conservative commentator settled five lawsuits filed by women claiming sexual harassment or inappropriate behavior. The president then went on to defend Mr. O’Reilly, who has hosted him frequently over the years.

“I think he’s a person I know well — he is a good person,” said Mr. Trump, who during the interview was surrounded at his desk by a half-dozen of his highest-ranking aides, including the economic adviser Gary Cohn and Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, along with Vice President Mike Pence.

“I think he shouldn’t have settled; personally I think he shouldn’t have settled,” said Mr. Trump. “Because you should have taken it all the way. I don’t think Bill did anything wrong.”

Of course the serial sexual assaulter doesn't think another sexual assailer did anything wrong.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#181169: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:56:04 AM

Yeah, does there have to be an "endpoint" for progressive ideology? The overall moral/philosophical goal, if one must express it in broad terms, is for everyone to have a level playing field with which to seek achievement to the best of their ability.

This means that unfair advantages due to inherited wealth, socioeconomic privilege, institutionalized prejudice, capitalistic rent-seeking, cronyism, corruption, and whatnot need to be eliminated to the maximum extent possible.

Also, Ambar's essay there about Imperial Japan deserves as many [awesome] and [tup] as I can give it.

edited 5th Apr '17 9:59:38 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#181170: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:56:16 AM

As for where the Democrats can go-create jobs through infrastructure. Real infrastructure, not kickbacks for companies-the US is crumbling, and this is the perfect fix to get everyone on board politically with new jobs. While you may not win over voters with philosophical or even practical solutions, most people will have a very strong reaction to something visceral-and few things are as visceral as cracking your teeth on a pothole or tripping over a shattered concrete walk. One recurring element from all these interviews with Trump supporters is complaints about everyday problems they imagine the Republicans will fix, like dangerous roads falling apart. Hardly heroic, but whatever works to get them to sit home instead of voting for another charlatan promising to fix highly visible problems.

Would also be a good way to permanently increase jobs-infrastructure needs to be maintained and updated constantly, and is needed everywhere. As for construction jobs, union jobs tend to pay well and non-union jobs tend to have plenty of extra hours and overtime available for decent pay. Also one of the few industries left where you can walk on with little or no experience and work your way up, and get specialized training paid for if you prove capable.

Just need to bundle it with more legislation to close the loopholes abused by companies; like additional protection for seasonal/pickup work like that atrocious 90-day benefit rule, and stop companies from buying a brand new fleet of equipment they do not need as a write-off instead of paying their taxes in full.

justhelping Since: Dec, 2016
#181171: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:56:49 AM

The problem is that economic inequality is inevitable- the simple truth is that not everyone can live a comfortable western existence. We don't pay doctors and garbage collectors the same amount, for example (and good reason.) Everyone has different skills, so yes, there will be inequals.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:03:03 AM by justhelping

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181172: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:01:30 AM

[up][up] "Vote Democrat and that pothole you have to keep swerving to avoid will be fixed! Vote Republican and that pothole will be filled on the cheap by a Trump crony!"

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#181173: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:03:06 AM

[up][up]Neither of those two statements were a necessary or obvious outcome of my statement about progressive values.

First, perfect equality is obviously impossible; one can only hope to get close enough that individual variance can hold more sway than inherited privilege.

Second, a "Western standard of living" is not implied, nor even desirable as a discrete goal. Rather, we would like to see the billions of people currently in subsistence poverty offered a reasonable chance to escape it, while people in Western nations do not need to worry about housing, education, transportation, health care, and other staples of the First World.

You insist on strawmanning progressivism to sound like Marxism, when it is not even close.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:04:24 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#181174: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:04:14 AM

[up][up][up] But that doesn't mean that steps shouldn't be taken to minimize that inequality.

One goal should be easily accessible and affordable healthcare to everyone. Inequality has nothing to do with that. Good education is really important too.

edited 5th Apr '17 10:05:38 AM by Zendervai

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#181175: Apr 5th 2017 at 10:05:05 AM

[up]x4:And yet, is this true? There is plenty of evidence that we may be staggering in a direction where that is possible, at least technology and resource-wise, which begs the question, if and when that is within reach, what are we prepared to do as a society to get there and push our socio, economic and even psychological boundaries.

[up]x3:You laugh, but go back and read how many interviews swerve to everyday problems people base their decisions around-emotional components are the core of most peoples' decision making, and expoilting that psychologically is why the GOP has such a firm grip on their cultists.


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