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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#181126: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:00:23 AM

[up][up] Democrat or Republican one? Either way, that's a bleak prediction.

edited 5th Apr '17 8:00:36 AM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#181127: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:05:25 AM

...Why most people here are all skeptic of Republicans being capable of redemption?

Pattern recognition.

The Republican party has trapped itself in a negative feedback loop where they intentionally radicalized their own voter base over the course of decades starting at least as far back as the 90s with Gingrich, and probably at least since the Reagen administration, in order to assure that they'd never even consider voting blue. As a result, the party's base has only become more and more disconnected from reality and facts over time, and has bought so deeply into the party's insane voodoo philosophies that the only way for Republican politicians to get elected is to reflect that insanity, resulting in a mix of federal level of the party made up entirely of either True Believers in the madness, or opportunists who merely talk the talk.

As a result, we have little hope of the Republican voters coming around to their senses, because they've spent at least the last two decades living on their own poisoned Kool-Aid after thier leaders declared water a left-wing conspiracy from America-hating Democrats, and we have little hope of Republican politicians coming around, because even if they aren't True Believers in the madness, they are reliant upon those crazies for their power. So the cycle repeats, and the party grows ever more slightly insane.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#181128: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:06:03 AM

Staking the nation's future on Republicans being intelligent citizens, rational voters, and good neighbors is doomed to failure. In general, I would prefer that they be apolitical, but in the case of repairing American democracy, it's actually essential that they refrain from voting. Their very presence in the political sphere puts American prosperity, prestige, and safety at risk.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#181129: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:09:49 AM

I mean, someone could point out that Obama wasn't able to bring about "Hope" and "Change" because a Republican-dominated Congress was actively obstructing him and hobbling his efforts the entire way, while Trump, who theoretically should be empowered by a Republican-dominated Congress, is failing to get shit done and what shit he is getting done is screwing them over spectacularly, but I doubt that would get through to them.

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#181130: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:11:35 AM

So we have to find ways to break their trust in their own party's leadership so they will stay home on election days and allow rational leaders to take power.

This is what I keep coming back to every time "but the WWC!" comes up. These people will simply never vote for the Dems, even when we give them exactly what they're asking for. The insistence that we can appeal to them without throwing our core under the bus rings completely hollow when that's the only thing left that we're not already doing for them, and even then it's more than likely that they'd still vote Republican because they're totally disconnected from reality.

Doing any more to appeal directly to these voters is a waste of resources, and more likely to alienate our own base than to flip them. It's a tremendous effort to make our situation worse. The best we can do is not make them vote for us, but make them stay home on election day.

edited 5th Apr '17 8:14:00 AM by Wryte

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#181131: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:12:24 AM

[up] So if that's the case, then what could be their level of sanity by 2050 if they still exist?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#181132: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:13:52 AM

[up]Hopefully they'd have weeded themselves out by that point due to selection pressure (and people these days refusing to date or associate with Trump-voters). Otherwise we're looking at Arkham Horror levels of sanity (or lack thereof).

edited 5th Apr '17 8:14:18 AM by danime91

Wryte Since: Jul, 2010
#181133: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:14:37 AM

^^ If we're still alive in 2050, the Republican party will not be; at least not in any greater capacity than remnants lurking in the recesses of 4chan. If the Republicans remain a governing voice for another 30 years, we won't actually make it to 2050.

edited 5th Apr '17 8:16:36 AM by Wryte

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#181134: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:15:17 AM

[up][up][up][up] If Obamacare isn't repealed and replaced by next year, and if Gorsuch is successfully Filibustered, Baby Boomers may very well sit out of the 2018 Election, allowing for Democrats to successfully take the House, and maybe just barely gaining a small lead in the Senate. Remember, most Republicans blame Congress for the failure of Ryancare, and Congress has worse ratings then Trump. I also doubt Trump has enough money or influence to primary every Republican that goes against him.

edited 5th Apr '17 8:15:32 AM by DingoWalley1

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181135: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:16:38 AM

It's one thing to get them to acknowledge in public that they were wrong about certain issues and that some things Democratic Party officials are offering sound good. It's another thing entirely to get them to admit that they made a mistake voting for Trump.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#181136: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:25:04 AM

It's such a bizarre experience: you can get an individual to admit that a particular policy or program is good for them, or that a particular economic idea has merit, but when you try to extrapolate that to why they continue to vote Republican, it just disappears into an endless well of cognitive dissonance. I know; I've tried.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#181137: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:52:15 AM

Representative Anna Eshoo (D-WA) is the first member of the House to file a discharge petition for the tax returns of Trump and all other 2016 presidential candidates.

edited 5th Apr '17 8:52:49 AM by tclittle

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#181138: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:52:52 AM

I'm seeing some reports that Bannon has been removed from the NSC

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#181139: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:53:48 AM

[up]...Can we toast?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#181140: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:54:40 AM

[up][up][up]I think it's clear at this point we're not getting those tax returns. It's time Dems let it go and focus the Trump Admin's next big "screw you".

[up][up]Where from?

edited 5th Apr '17 8:54:52 AM by PhysicalStamina

i'm tired, my friend
LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#181141: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:55:18 AM

CNN, and a bunch of other sites

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#181142: Apr 5th 2017 at 8:56:55 AM

My news feed just popped those headlines up from CNN and WaPo. I'm not sure I'm necessarily happy with Bannon taking a less public role, because it'll mean more opportunities for him to do surreptitious shit, but if it indicates an actual falling out within the Trump administration, then I'm cheering inside.

edited 5th Apr '17 8:57:43 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Demongodofchaos2 Face me now, bitch! from In a Cultivation World (Ancient one) Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#181145: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:03:56 AM

[up] So its a toast for the removal it seems!

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181146: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:07:29 AM

Until Bannon is far away from the WH and begging on the streets of one of the inner cities he hates so much, I'm not gonna celebrate too hard.

Why yes, I'm still nursing a slight grudge against those comments he made about Asians like me having no place being successful in a "civic society".

edited 5th Apr '17 9:08:28 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#181147: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:08:39 AM

I happen to think that the WWC voters who supported Trump had a point- and I hate Trump. It's not like the Democrats ever did anything for them economically. Obamacare basically ignored them, and globalization is killing them. Voting for Trump is like throwing a brick through the Mayor's house: "Are you paying attention now?"

Of course they are reachable. If they were brainwashed by conservative rhetoric they would have voted for Cruz, not Trump. A lot of them voted for Obama in the election before. They aren't esp. stupid or evil or brainwashed, they're just people, and if they are responding to two decades of relentless propaganda, can you really blame them for that? Where was the counter-story? Certainly the Democratic party leadership weren't talking a progressive set of policies that would benefit the WWC before Sanders came along. Or actually, some of them were talking, just not voting for them.

So no. I don't blame the WWC for their protest vote. It's true that their culture is essentially tribalist, that they vote for what they think is their own community's interests even if the rest of the world burns, and they tend to have too much respect for authoritarian public figures, but show them how your policies will benefit their tribe, and they will support you. They've done it more than once in the past, why not now?

And remember one more thing- either we peel away a significant fraction of these voters, or we are doomed to lose from now one. Minorities and Cali/Northwest elitist voters simply aren't numerous enough to win nationally, not with the electoral college in place. So I, as an active progressive (I'm out there protesting in public, putting myself on the line) would appreciate it if we could quit the "doom talk", stop demonizing voters we dont agree with (demonizing Trump is ok, though), and start thinking constructively about how to win the Congress back in 2018.

K?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#181148: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:11:09 AM

[up]I'd say voting for Trump is more like throwing a boomerang at the Mayor's house, and being taken aback when it doesn't reach and instead hits you in the face.

i'm tired, my friend
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#181149: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:12:11 AM

Voting for Trump was not throwing a brick into some random elite's house. It was hitting other people with a brick and having it rebound in their face each time.

It would be easier to stay positive if we didn't keep hearing stories of these people still going "Oh Trump will MAGA!" even as he screws them.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#181150: Apr 5th 2017 at 9:12:25 AM

I happen to think that the WWC voters who supported Trump had a point- and I hate Trump. It's not like the Democrats ever did anything for them economically. Obamacare basically ignored them, and globalization is killing them. Voting for Trump is like throwing a brick through the Mayor's house: "Are you paying attention now?"

Sorry, but that is absolute bullshit. Obamacare did wonders for the WWC, as many of the millions of people who got health insurance coverage were from that demographic. All of the social programs that benefit them were progressive initiatives, from welfare to Social Security to Medicaid/Medicare to minimum wages to job safety regulations to public schools to early child education, on and on and on.

The idea that Democrats never did anything for them is such a colossal lie that it may aspire to be the greatest falsehood of the past two generations. All Democrats do is try to help them, while Republicans try to take things away from them.

They've been reaping the economic benefits of progressive policy since the early 1900s, complaining all the while about how their cultural identity is being stolen. They can shove that up their posteriors.

edited 5th Apr '17 9:17:10 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

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