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CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180851: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:06:39 PM

[up] I know nobody was actually claiming that, but the point I was trying to make was that, even back in the day, it was hardly a foregone conclusion that the civil rights movement would result in the collapse of social democracy in the United States, even with race relations being as bad as they were back then; social justice and economic justice do not need to be mutually exclusive.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#180852: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:13:11 PM

I don't think anyone is claiming they need to mutually exclusive, just that there has been a historic correlation of economic justice coming at the expense of racial justice and as noted many times in this thread, white voters supporting economic conservative policies once minorities benefited from social welfare policies.

And as has been discussed, there's a big narrative right now by both centrists and leftists that Democrats have pushed social justice "too much". Like I think this whole discussion is basically because Bernie Sanders seems to periodically make comments implying that it's a zero sum game.

Edit- Also, on the topic of racism and policing, too no one's surprise, Sessions is now ordering the Justice Department to review all police reform agreements before approving them to make sure they are sufficiently "pro police".

edited 3rd Apr '17 8:18:16 PM by Hodor2

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#180853: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:19:27 PM

I also don't care for Sanders perpetuating the "liberal elite" bullshit peddled by right-wing pundits.

Like, yes some of those bloggers or "new-age" college educated people in big cities might be better off than some of the working class but you know who's even better off than them? People like Donald Trump.

Fuck that shit and any implication that they aren't "real americans".

edited 3rd Apr '17 8:20:34 PM by Draghinazzo

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180854: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:26:20 PM

[up] The fact that the United States (and, though I have not seen comparable studies for other countries, I expect this would hold true for most if not all so called democracies) is functionally an oligarchy is not exclusively the fault of the GOP.

edited 3rd Apr '17 8:27:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#180855: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:35:57 PM

My point is that "liberal elite" is a term that comes with a lot of baggage, and a lot of the discourse surrounding it is hypocritical and comes with a lot of tacit statements about what a "real american" is or isn't.

Being a "liberal elite" (the stereotypical image of some hip, trendy 20-30 year old writer for some big publication in a big coastal city sipping on mocca lattes while typing on their macbooks) is not any less american than being a blue collar worker in rural america.

Moreover, it ignores how elites with other political views only pay lip service to "real americans" to get votes and then systematically fuck them over.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180856: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:38:28 PM

[up] Considering that's also the spitting image of a Sanders supporter, I feel like you might be missing something.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#180857: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:46:44 PM

Trump is urging Republicans in Congress to vote for a new Obamacare 'replacement' Plan. Little is know about it, but from what little we know, the plan is basically "Obamacare is the law of the land, but States can go out of it they can prove it will hurt their state". It'd also turn Stability Funds into High-Risk Health Pools for People with Pre-Existing Conditions to try and bring costs down.

It's literally gonna turn Obamacare into a patchwork across the nation. Some Teapublicans and Moderates show interest, but it is currently unknown if there will be enough to get it passed. On top of that, Trump wants the vote done by Friday, before Congress goes on Recess!

edited 3rd Apr '17 8:52:04 PM by DingoWalley1

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#180858: Apr 3rd 2017 at 8:55:42 PM

Man, it took Obama over a year to finalize the ACA, Trump can't do shit within a week. And the Tea Party will attack it because it isn't a full repeal.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#180859: Apr 4th 2017 at 1:33:12 AM

Sanders seems to downplay the number of people in the USA who are the subject of that one LBJ quote.

"If you can convince the lowest white man he's better than the best colored man, he won't notice you're picking his pocket. Hell, give him somebody to look down on, and he'll empty his pockets for you."

Either he's idealistic enough to think this isn't true, or he's willing to pretend he thinks this isn't true if it means he can get more votes.

edited 4th Apr '17 1:33:42 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#180860: Apr 4th 2017 at 1:51:02 AM

It seems that he's a tad too idealistic.

I mean related but a couple months ago, Bernie went to a county that voted for Trump and talked to Trump supporters:

Trump supporters come on a little after the 15 minute mark.

Tldr; Bernie successfully connected with them.

Also the Trump supporters:

A) thought Trump's angry rhetoric was empty talk and never gonna happen

B) liked Bernie or Trump but hated everyone else in-between and thought people like Hillary and Cruz were empty suits that talked over them

C) despise establishment politics where people talk a lot bullshit when they want someone to cut the crap

D) disliked how the 2016 election was more about personality than policy and thought both sides didn't talk enough about that

E) some of them voted for Democrats down-ticket but voted for Trump

F) some voted against Hillary rather than for Trump

edited 4th Apr '17 1:51:52 AM by MadSkillz

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#180861: Apr 4th 2017 at 2:11:47 AM

Honestly that just frustrates me more. If they had studied either candidate for more than two minutes they would have realized Trump wasn't empty talk and that Hillary talked almost entirely about policy.

Oh really when?
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#180862: Apr 4th 2017 at 2:24:00 AM

[up] The issue was that the rallies had policy and job talk while the ads were about personality. The same rallies media networks by and large ignored in favor of Trump, even going so far as to give more screen time to an empty podium.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#180863: Apr 4th 2017 at 3:37:34 AM

Helped Start Multiple Wars?

What?

WHAT?!

Didn't you know Fox, AQ never attacked the US with the help of the Taliban, there was no war in either Syria or Libya until the US got involved and Bush secretly told Clinton that all the evidence against Saddam was fake.

Many on the isolationist side of the left like to pretend that a war isn't started until the US gets involved, until then it's not real because it's only brown people dying.

Some kind of ideological purity, apparently.

That's not just a thing from the Sanders wing, look around this thread, we have people calling for their own ideological purity test where everyone has to be a centerist. We can't win over the WWC, we can't win over people who voted for Trump (even if they previously voted for Obama), we can't win over anyone who bought into the propaganda against Clinton and we can't win over any of the Unicorn brigade. Apparently we've enough votes to win as is and don't need to win over anyone else.

And then a little thing called the Civil Rights Movement happened and for some reason the WWC was no longer enamored of those policies...

And that's why after signing the civil rights act LBJ lost a historic election against Goldwater. Oh wait, he won 486 to 52/ 61% to 39%.

A lot fo Trump supporters like Socalism, they're not as afraid of the word as they used to be and if you don't use the word they jump at it, they're big fans of Trump style National Socalism, we just need to sell them on it without the National part, which is possible.

edited 4th Apr '17 3:55:03 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#180864: Apr 4th 2017 at 3:50:28 AM

[up][awesome]

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#180865: Apr 4th 2017 at 3:53:04 AM

Remind me who the "unicorn brigade" is supposed to be again?

i'm tired, my friend
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#180866: Apr 4th 2017 at 3:58:35 AM

It's a phrase aimed at generally young left wing people who voted for Sanders but refused to vote for Clinton because she wasn't ideologically 100% on board with them, because she didn't inspire them or because they felt she was faking her swing to the left.

They contain the contrarian wing, people who will never actually support anyone in power and just what to throw rocks at the system.

I'm not a big fan of them either, but let's not pretend that we can get away without expanding out voter pool from what it was in November, we need to win over someone that we didn't in November and there are some folks here who seem to think that hat everyone who didn't vote for Clinton in November should be told to go to hell and that we don't need any of them.

edited 4th Apr '17 3:59:14 AM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#180867: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:02:23 AM

Can we stop this? You have been repeating the same arguements over and over, and turning into a giant echo chamber.

So I offer Keith Olbermann's video on Trump/Russia.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?list=PL0hKMB1-xkc-XWNf9VL-LxVYysdHpjyMF¶ms=OAFIAVgB&v=WCWJmmG257s&mode=NORMAL

Although Keith can be a bit.... well Keith, I think he's right on the money That Trump is trying to distract from Russia.

Thoughts? Questions? agree? Disagree? Why?

Edit: More threads unravel in the Trump/Russia story. http://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/report-trump-donor-blackwater-founder-erik-prince-in-secret-meeting-with-russian-close-to-putin/

edited 4th Apr '17 7:03:29 AM by megaeliz

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#180868: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:26:30 AM

Moved to previous post [up]

edited 4th Apr '17 7:09:13 AM by megaeliz

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#180869: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:28:17 AM

It's almost like the hydra of Lerna there.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#180870: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:34:14 AM

I am reminded of a Sherlock Holmes Quote, the only problem so that Trump is too incompetant to be Moriarty. So is Russia Moriarty?

He sits motionless, like a spider in the center of its web, but that web has a thousand radiations, and he knows well every quiver of each of them.

edited 4th Apr '17 4:37:06 AM by megaeliz

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#180872: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:51:48 AM

[up][up]

That would imply strategic competence and long term planning which Russian leadership and security services have not shown in the last few years. Rather the problem is that how easy it is to exploit the US system and the people in it.

edited 4th Apr '17 4:53:01 AM by TerminusEst

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#180873: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:53:46 AM

Maybe they're desprately trying and failing miserably,

They wove a web of lies and deceit and got themselves trapped in it as well.

edited 4th Apr '17 4:54:53 AM by megaeliz

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#180874: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:54:18 AM

Underestimating the Russians is exactly we ended up in this situation.

Yes, they are that smart and capable when it comes to their intelligence organizations

Oh really when?
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#180875: Apr 4th 2017 at 4:56:24 AM

Still, I think Moriarty is these people's idol.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=PVsvZIIBM3A

edited 4th Apr '17 5:20:36 AM by megaeliz


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