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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#180801: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:27:06 PM

Can we talk about some of the other organizations to resist Trump, instead of the Justice Dems. The people who we are going to watch out for are Indivisible, Swing Left, Sister District, and Flippable. A big part of why the AHCA was pulled was due to Local indivisible groups putting pressure on congress, and all of these groups as well as a few smaller ones were instrumental in keeping a democratic seat in Delaware, and are leading the charge to flip Georgia's 6th district.

http://www.rollcall.com/news/gonzales/democrats-delaware-special-election

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/delaware-special-senate-election_us_58b22659e4b060480e089560?3uk9zh353rq7zxgvi&&ncid=inblnkushpmg00000009

https://thegavoice.com/georgia-progressives-move-flip-6th-congressional-district/

Indivisible: https://www.indivisibleguide.com

Swing Left: https://swingleft.org

Sister District: https://www.sisterdistrict.com

Flippable: https://www.flippable.org

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:33:04 PM by megaeliz

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180802: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:28:17 PM

[up] I feel like the bickering would be twice as bad if he was actually elected President, considering what happened in the UK when a socialist was elected to be the party leader.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#180804: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:32:51 PM

I would argue that the university/college problem can be solved if you grab a couple of leaves from our education guidebook:

1) Nationalise or build a series of new universities. Ensure that even private universities need to conform to a standard of education set by the federal government if they want their diplomas to be legitimate.

2) Award the university money per application, but have a maximum number of 'seats' in each individual class. This prevents the budget from suddenly ballooning, but it runs the problem of making the selection process difficult. I would go into a bit more detail on the process but I'm typing from a phone at 2:30 PM.

3) Subsidise students. This is where we get into 'no American would touch this' territory. Here, you get a subsidy from the government if you're a full time student, to the tune of 5.200 kroner (around 750 bucks) a month if you live in your own apartment, to make sure you can afford rent (and food if you budget correctly) so you don't need to depend on a side job with a ton of hours.

4) Raise your minimum wage, Jesus.

[up][up][up][up]

And Russia's health care system is butts. I thought the point was to make a single payer/universal healthcare system that was actually good. tongue

Also, doesn't help the UK that Corbyn is just...terrible at his job and Labour's been bleeding voters under him.

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:36:49 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180805: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:35:48 PM

[up] As far as minimum wage goes, there's the issue of different localities having drastically different costs of living in different parts of the United States; anything less than $15.00/hour is a starvation wage in southern New York, whereas out in the middle of Arkansas what we have now is pretty much fine.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#180806: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:39:14 PM

[up] There's a similar problem with students living in Copenhagen vs. where I study in terms of the stipend I outlined above. In theory you could help the system along by having the individual states adjust the stipend?

That'd be ripe for abuse in red states, though.

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:39:58 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180807: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:39:44 PM

[up] In which case the red states will refuse to take the money; America is weirdly decentralized like that.

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:40:19 PM by CaptainCapsase

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#180808: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:41:07 PM

Yeah. Alternatively have the federal government adjust it for cost of living from on high.

In which case we're back to the accusations of Bolshevism.

But that's gonna be the case either way. This is 'how would I try and implement the Danish system in the US' thinking.

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:42:20 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#180809: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:47:43 PM

megaeliz: yeah, those guys are ok AFAIK.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#180810: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:48:07 PM

His criticism of the Democrats' policies isn't that they "only help non-whites", but rather that they only help the wealthy. Which, in my opinion, is absolutely true.

Honestly, anyone who thinks this even after Trump is actively funneling taxpayer money into his own pockets.... just stop.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#180811: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:48:51 PM

Did you even read what I said? The left calls Clinton a warmonger because she helped start multiple wars, not because they read some hit-piece on Breitbart. Trump imitated the left's antiwar criticisms of her, not vice-versa.

The fringe left calls her that because they do not and never have understood the nuances of foreign policy and want to just repeat "war is bad", ignoring any sort of context. The hard right played on that, and you can't claim it's because of real concerns because we had self-proclaimed leftists in this very thread and others repeating the alt-right claim that she would start a war with Russia. That's a Trump talking point coming out of the mouth of supposed progressives.

And I'm going to point out the hypocrisy again. You keep talking about a lunatic alt-left fringe and advancing this idea that your side is the side of pragmatism and compromise. But you also want your side to shoot itself in the foot if it means giving the left an inch so you end up being no better than these leftist obstructionists.

You have literally no concept of what a compromise is. If the so-called "True Progressives" want to come to the table and talk, that's fine. But they don't. They've been screaming for people to accept Sanders' entire platform, unedited, and that's not a compromise, that's a surrender followed by a hostile takeover.

The final version of Clinton's platform? That was a compromise. It was not, however, something that the diehards were prepared to accept. And so despite getting nearly everything they wanted, they stayed home, or voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson (how progressive). And now that it's all over they're demanding that the Democratic Party overhaul itself to give them everything they ever wanted.

The party tried to compromise. The diehards rejected the compromise. If they've got a different compromise they want to go with they are welcome to present it. But demanding that they be given the keys to the kingdom on the basis of exactly nothing, is not a compromise. Neither are their threats to primary everybody, etc, etc. "Give us what we want or we try to sink the boat" is not a compromise, and it is not hypocrisy to reject that attitude and anyone who carries it.

You know if I called Grima Wormrongue and Sauron bad guys that's not putting them on the same level.

And that's still a BS comparison. I don't like, oh, pretty much everything about how the state of Israel operates. But to call them the bad guys is a pretty questionable outlook nonetheless.

Re-read it again. Did I say he's not racist because he marched in the Civil Right Movement?

No, I did not but nice try strawmanning. Good luck next time.

I specifically said "I doubt" that he's an advocating for a white only form of socialism.

And the only reason you gave for your doubts is that he marched in the Civil Rights movement. Not a strawman; it's literally what you said.

Hey, I'm still against this stuff when Bernie does it. I just think that Hillary is even worse on this particular issue.

Then why the endless condemnation of her, but not of him? She's basically vanished since the end of the election. He's still out there trying to pitch his ideas. Should he not, logically, become the target of your ire since he's active politically and she is not?

It's also a result of the Marxist lens that Bernie views the world where racism is just a derivative of class.

And that viewpoint is in and of itself highly toxic and dismissive of the concerns of minorities. You cannot tell someone who has experienced very real prejudice based on their skin tone that it's secretly because of class. Particularly given the well-documented history of middle class and even wealthy African-Americans being targeted for racist abuse.

Racism and classism are tied together, certainly, but they are not two sides of the same coin and if you act like solving class issues will automatically fix race issues then you do not get to complain when minorities are not interested in voting for you.

His criticism of the Democrats' policies isn't that they "only help non-whites", but rather that they only help the wealthy. Which, in my opinion, is absolutely true.

Got something to actually back that up? Without the Democrats the Republicans would have gutted all forms of social security decades back and the poor would be a whole lot poorer.

Many of them also support terrible trade deals like the TPP, and are extremely eager to "compromise" with Republicans on cutting social programs.

The horrors of TPP are grossly exaggerated, and I hate to break this to you, but the Democratic candidate for president disavowed the TPP anyway. And no, "she was lying and would have upheld it" is not a counterargument. You can't claim most Democrats are for it when the party's standard bearer no longer wanted anything to do with it. As for eagerly cutting social programs...examples please?

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:50:01 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#180812: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:49:57 PM

[up][up] Strictly speaking, the two aren't mutually exclusive.

I mean, I don't agree that they only help the rich - you only need to look at the millions of people who have healthcare thanks to the ACA to know that's not true - but it's theoretically possible for both parties to only care about the rich.

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:50:09 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180813: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:50:21 PM

[up][up][up] Trump being worse doesn't absolve the democrats of their own failings.

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:54:36 PM by CaptainCapsase

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#180814: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:53:02 PM

Whether they care about the poor or not, the Democrats have actively helped the poor and the Republicans have not. That's the difference. And of course the changes that certain elements are arguing for won't actually help the poor that much, because once you demand an abandonment of "identity politics" you ensure that poor minorities get no help whatsoever.

Reality is the precious WWC will not support policies that help minorities. And trying to hide that a policy will help minorities won't cut it, because 1) there's another party out there who will inform them anyway and 2) you risk losing minority voters who don't understand the smokescreen you're throwing up.

Talk about economic justice all you want. But everytime someone says "let's move away from identity politics" I am going to give them a very, very askance glance.

[up]But helping Trump stay in power by talking nonstop about the Democrats' failings does nothing but screw the people the "True Progressives" supposedly care about.

edited 3rd Apr '17 5:53:46 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#180815: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:54:30 PM

The horrors of TPP are grossly exaggerated

Actually...I'll be honest, I'd like a source on that. How have its horrors been exaggerated?

Oh God! Natural light!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180816: Apr 3rd 2017 at 5:56:23 PM

@Ambar: And what's your alternative? Building genuinely inclusive institutions is all but impossible even in the best of times, and trying to do it in the middle of a crisis will probably make things even worse than they already are. The fact of the matter is that, as far as I can tell, you and other proponents of the political status quo have no plan other than sticking your head in the sand and hoping people come to their senses.

edited 3rd Apr '17 6:06:06 PM by CaptainCapsase

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#180817: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:17:38 PM

Well no one sure explained how someone to the left of Barack Obama is going to somehow win a fickle voting block that thinks socialism is a scary word and that abortion is the evil... no ifs/ands/buts

Not to mention liberals complained that Bill Clinton moved the Dems to the right to win over the wwc. So why are they now okay when Sanders make the same suggestion?

Why is it that Hillary caught flack from the left for trying to win over sane Republicans, yet Sanders say we can't antagonize Republican voters and his suggestion is somehow seen as brilliant?

Tim Kaine became a governor/Senator of a Red State by appealing to the wwc. Yet the Bernie wing can't stand him for some goddamn reason. Seriously, what exactly does the wing want?

edited 3rd Apr '17 6:20:04 PM by NoName999

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#180818: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:20:47 PM

Some kind of ideological purity, apparently.

Do not obey in advance.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#180819: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:21:13 PM

[up][up] There's a difference between personally antagonizing/shaming voters (which is pretty high up on the list of things no official up for reelection should do under any circumstances) and meeting them halfway in terms of policy. One is practically Stupid Evil (the former), the latter comes with drawbacks and benefits which may or may not be worth it. Sanders view is that there's been too much of both, though I don't necessarily share that on the second part.

edited 3rd Apr '17 6:23:44 PM by CaptainCapsase

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#180820: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:21:25 PM

You have literally no concept of what a compromise is. If the so-called "True Progressives" want to come to the table and talk, that's fine. But they don't. They've been screaming for people to accept Sanders' entire platform, unedited, and that's not a compromise, that's a surrender followed by a hostile takeover. The final version of Clinton's platform? That was a compromise. It was not, however, something that the diehards were prepared to accept. And so despite getting nearly everything they wanted, they stayed home, or voted for Jill Stein or Gary Johnson (how progressive). And now that it's all over they're demanding that the Democratic Party overhaul itself to give them everything they ever wanted.

Hillary's platform was good but would her actions have matched her words? Democrats talk big about leftish policies.

And again, people did not see her as trustworthy.

That said most Bernie supporters went for Hillary. You're talking about a very small fringe .

The party tried to compromise. The diehards rejected the compromise. If they've got a different compromise they want to go with they are welcome to present it. But demanding that they be given the keys to the kingdom on the basis of exactly nothing, is not a compromise. Neither are their threats to primary everybody, etc, etc. "Give us what we want or we try to sink the boat" is not a compromise, and it is not hypocrisy to reject that attitude and anyone who carries it.

The party tried to retain control by saying they're compromising.

And that's still a BS comparison. I don't like, oh, pretty much everything about how the state of Israel operates. But to call them the bad guys is a pretty questionable outlook nonetheless.

Eh, it's a difference in morality system.

And the only reason you gave for your doubts is that he marched in the Civil Rights movement. Not a strawman; it's literally what you said.

I didn't know I was supposed to bring out an essay on why I doubted Bernie being a racist?

My point was that you were saying that I think he can't be racist because he marched in the Civil Rights Movement which wasn't what I was saying.

And that viewpoint is in and of itself highly toxic and dismissive of the concerns of minorities. You cannot tell someone who has experienced very real prejudice based on their skin tone that it's secretly because of class. Particularly given the well-documented history of middle class and even wealthy African-Americans being targeted for racist abuse.

Racism and classism are tied together, certainly, but they are not two sides of the same coin and if you act like solving class issues will automatically fix race issues then you do not get to complain when minorities are not interested in voting for you.

When did he complain about that?

The horrors of TPP are grossly exaggerated, and I hate to break this to you, but the Democratic candidate for president disavowed the TPP anyway. And no, "she was lying and would have upheld it" is not a counterargument. You can't claim most Democrats are for it when the party's standard bearer no longer wanted anything to do with it.

No, she didn't. She said it didn't meet her standard implying that she would've made a slightly friendlier version of TPP.

edited 3rd Apr '17 6:23:22 PM by MadSkillz

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#180821: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:24:00 PM

(bah ignore)

edited 3rd Apr '17 6:24:38 PM by NoName999

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#180822: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:26:35 PM

Obama and Hillary Clinton both did that and the Bernie wing wanted to tar and feather both of them.

Funnily enough, Obama tried to initially position himself above race.

He took hits to his approval once the BL movement got started and he said Trayvon Martin could've been him.

henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#180823: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:31:19 PM

And absolutely no-one was surprised: Trump signs internet privacy repeal


Not to mention liberals complained that Bill Clinton moved the Dems to the right to win over the wwc. So why are they now okay when Sanders make the same suggestion?
There's a difference. Bernie wants to win over the WWC by moving the party to the left.

edited 3rd Apr '17 6:33:25 PM by henry42

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#180824: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:33:25 PM

Several Members of the Tuesday Group (Moderate Republicans), specifically Rep. Charlie Dent (R-Penn), plan to work with Democrats to fix Obamacare, instead of just trying to Repeal and Replace it. There are several hurtles the Group is facing from both sides, but they will try their hardest to make it work.

Good for them, especially Dent. Hopefully we get something good out of it.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#180825: Apr 3rd 2017 at 6:35:43 PM

[up][up]And what makes you think it will work? A Maoist-Third Worldism leaflet?

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot

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