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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
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So the Alt-Right has done a complete 180 and now advocates for the equality of all races? Or the Young Turks and the Justice Democrats, which are heavily inspired by Bernie Sanders, have become racist White-Supremacists that advocate for Ethnic Cleansings?
Also, of course the Justice Democrats are Tribal. All Identity Politics are Tribal, whether it's for good reasons or for bad.
Thing is, Sargon himself isn't actually alt-right - but he does have a lot of fans among them because their views on "Social Justice Warriors" etc align. Guy sees himself as being part of the left - no part of the left I would want to associate with, though.
edited 3rd Apr '17 1:45:30 PM by DrunkenNordmann
We learn from history that we do not learn from historyThe Susan Rice thing is confusing, but here's an article that explains it pretty well.
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He claims to be "classically liberal".
In practice, this involves furious denial of literally anything suggesting that you can discriminate against someone or be discriminated against based on traits such as gender, worldviews (unless it's his. Obviously.), ethnicity, religion or favorite singer.
This, not coincidentally, does tie in to how Sanders lackeys have failed badly at intersectionalism. "Rein in the women"
, anyone? Seriously, the Sanders movement's attempts to reach across the aisle does not sound very intersectional
.
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TYT is still named after the perpetrators of the Armenian Genocide.
edited 3rd Apr '17 1:58:02 PM by Krieger22
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiotWorth noting is that the extremes of left and right can come to resemble each other through the "horseshoe effect
". For example, both may use threats, character assassination, and exclusionary behavior against anyone who does not share their exact world view, or who dares criticize any of their ideas as unrealistic or unworkable. Both tend to reject intellectual honesty in favor of ideological purity. Both tend to shut out information sources outside their epistemic bubble. Both tend to support public candidates who toe the line rather than candidates with governing experience or political skills, then become very angry with them if they get elected and then succumb to political reality. Both tend to ignore obvious faults in their candidates while exaggerating faults in candidates closer to the political center.
As an example, note that most of the attacks on Hillary Clinton from the left were sourced in propaganda deliberately seeded by the alt-right.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:01:11 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"First of all, link to Sargon endorsement, because I forgot to source
.
x5 Now, that aside, I'll answer:
Infiltrated by the alt-right, they're using the thing to create infighting on the left and try to push a "let's ignore 'identity politics' to focus on economic issues (that benefit white people more than minorities)" agenda on the JDs, and making it a way to "take the party back from the 'SJWs'". They don't care about equality, they're using the Justice Democrats to disorganize the opposition.
Not what I mean. All political groups have a Tribal element but not all of them are dominated by their tribal elements.
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Yeah, Sargon's "not alt-right" in the "I'm not racist but..." sense.
"Now"? The Alt-Right's been advocating equality for all for a long time now. Egalitarianism is one of their favorite labels, 'cause it sounds better than White Supremacist or MRA.
A popular tactic of the Alt-Right is to declare that all people should be treated equal, then turn around and use that as a perspective from which to attack social rights movements and equity programs under the claim that because they selectively help only a specific group of people, they are oppressing the privileged majority.
"I'm not racist, YOU'RE racist, because you don't care about preserving white power!" is the Alt-Right's standard counter to accusations of racism. Always be wary of anyone who proclaims themselves an egalitarian; nine times out of ten, some mandate about how feminists ruined America and white culture is under attack is sure to follow.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:01:26 PM by TobiasDrake
My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
My own experience places a fair number of those people more in the libertarian camp than with the alt-right, though they're definitely enabling right wing extremists by zeroing in on what remains a small and relatively impotent part of the left wing camp rather than the radical ideologues currently in power in Washington.
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Much like they're also probably bankrolling black lives matter, and whatever remnants of the various black nationalist groups from the civil rights era are still around If we go by how this particular strategy was employed in Russia itself.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:06:50 PM by CaptainCapsase
Russia's starting to sound like The Institute. "If there's a domestic terrorist/legislative terrorist problem, Russia has their hands in it."
Worth noting is that I do not believe Sanders himself is "alt-left" — he clearly has a strong progressive political belief system, but was perfectly willing to work with Clinton and did not endorse the savage behavior of many of his supporters. However, his message of economic justice over social justice strongly resonated with the same people who hold those "faux-egalitarian" extremist beliefs. It had the effect of being blind to racial privilege, something amply demonstrated by his campaign's comments towards black voters in the southern states and its initial treatment of BLM.
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The problem with the Libertarian style folks is that they are either actual racists or have an egalitarian, race-blind ideal that they refuse to hold up to real life to see just how absurd it is.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:09:22 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Interesting to note that almost no one here realizes that there's just as much a tribalized center as there are a left and right.
Anyways this is a good video on Fox and Trump:
The gist is that Rupert Murdoch started out hating Trump and used Fox to attack him but Fox would take a ratings hit every time they did. Once Trump swept Super Tuesday, they decided to unify behind him so essentially they're in a hostage situation.
But Trump gives Murdoch comforting rewards like letting pick who heads the FCC and stopping a merger between his competitors.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:09:16 PM by MadSkillz
They're Unicorn Brigaders at their worst? Their name sounds like a bad comic book? They rail about "warmongers" like Clinton while supporting Gabbard? They claim to want equality while advocating for more outreach to the poor oppressed white folks? They coopt social justice arguments to try and argue for the abandonment of minorities? They openly plot to primary the only viable democrats in right-wing states? They brag of their intent to primary everyone who didn't support Sanders, which would mean primarying most of the Democratic Party? They deny the Russia story and in doing so help Trump? And of course their main news outlet is named after a gang of genocidal madmen.
These people aren't social democrats of any meaningful type. They're lazy hacks who demand solutions without even coming close to understanding the problem. They're entitled whiners who think that if they don't get their Progressive Messiah (TM) it must be evidence of a conspiracy against them.
I'm a member of a social democratic party in my country. When I think of all the effort, and all the compromising, and all the time that it took to turn the NDP into a party that can contend at the national level, and then I turn and look at people like the so-called "Justice Democrats" I can only feel sick to my stomach.
You better have some actual evidence for that, given that BLM is neither terrorist movement nor separatist group.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:11:36 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
Oh, according to The Daily Beast Bannon has dealings with the Egyptian government
. So... Trump-Russia, Flynn-Turkey, Bannon-Egypt... Are we going to have a DeVos-Gambia scandal next?
@Mad Skillz: Again, it's not that tribal elements are out of the ordinary for political movements, it's Tribalism as a dominant factor in the movement that is my problem.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:14:02 PM by IFwanderer
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV@Fighteer
Personally, I think so-called "horseshoe theory" is a bunch of BS. It all boils down to "different people with beliefs I dislike use similar extreme tactics." It says nothing about whether the underlying beliefs have anything in common, or whether the ideologies require these extreme methods.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:11:49 PM by henry42
One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!![]()
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To the extent that a "tribal center" exists, it is found mainly in the Cult of Centrism — the professional fence-sitters who insist that both left and right ideas must be given equal treatment no matter how absurd they may be individually. This force has been dominant in mainstream media coverage of elections for many decades. Otherwise, you'd have to give some citations.
Oh, it's quite true. The "scandal" over Hillary Clinton's emails and the Clinton Foundation came from a propaganda book titled Clinton Cash
researched and published by a right-wing think-tank allied with Steve Bannon. This book made its way into the FBI, where a number of agents maintained a substantial hatedom for HRC and pushed internally for her to be investigated.
The talking points of that investigation were in turn adopted by Sanders supporters (and, in some cases, Sanders himself) as an anti-Clinton chant.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:16:44 PM by Fighteer
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"Sanders Says trump voters not deplorable or racist, implying blames Clinton and DNC
Remind me again why I shouldn't dislike this asshole, when he goes out of his way to uplift the WWC as this somehow mythological demographic?
New Survey coming this weekend!@henry
Yes, but you also think the Russia scandal is a conspiracy theory because an article in The Intercept told you so.
You think the Clinton stuff came from a reliable source? Prove it. And provide some evidence from someone who isn't Glenn freaking Greenwald.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:13:34 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar
x8 Care to provide meat beyond this thread's Recommended Daily Intake of whataboutism?
The meeting took place around Jan. 11 — nine days before Trump’s inauguration — in the Seychelles islands in the Indian Ocean, officials said. Though the full agenda remains unclear, the UAE agreed to broker the meeting in part to explore whether Russia could be persuaded to curtail its relationship with Iran, including in Syria, a Trump administration objective that would likely require major concessions to Moscow on U.S. sanctions.
Though Prince had no formal role with the Trump campaign or transition team, he presented himself as an unofficial envoy for Trump to high-ranking Emiratis involved in setting up his meeting with the Putin confidant, according to the officials, who did not identify the Russian.
Prince was an avid supporter of Trump. After the Republican convention, he contributed $250,000 to Trump’s campaign, the national party and a pro-Trump super PAC led by GOP mega-donor Rebekah Mercer, records show. He has ties to people in Trump’s circle, including Stephen K. Bannon, now serving as the president’s chief strategist and senior counselor. Prince’s sister Betsy De Vos serves as education secretary in the Trump administration. And Prince was seen in the Trump transition offices in New York in December.
U.S. officials said the FBI has been scrutinizing the Seychelles meeting as part of a broader probe of Russian interference in the 2016 U.S. election and alleged contacts between associates of Putin and Trump. The FBI declined to comment.
The Seychelles encounter, which one official said spanned two days, adds to an expanding web of connections between Russia and Americans with ties to Trump — contacts that the White House has been reluctant to acknowledge or explain until they have been exposed by news organizations.
“We are not aware of any meetings and Erik Prince had no role in the transition,” said Sean Spicer, the White House press secretary.
“Erik had no role on the transition team. This is a complete fabrication,” said a spokesman for Prince in a statement. “The meeting had nothing to do with President Trump. Why is the so-called under-resourced intelligence community messing around with surveillance of American citizens when they should be hunting terrorists?”
Prince is best known as the founder of Blackwater, a security firm that became a symbol of U.S. abuses in Iraq after a series of incidents including one in 2007 in which the company’s guards were accused — and later criminally convicted — of killing civilians in a crowded Iraqi square. Prince sold the firm, which was subsequently rebranded, but has continued building a private paramilitary empire with contracts across the Middle East and Asia.
Prince would probably have been seen as too controversial to serve in any official capacity in the Trump transition or administration. But his ties to Trump advisers, experience with clandestine work and relationship with the royal leaders of the Emirates — where he moved in 2010 amid mounting legal problems for his American business — would have positioned him as an ideal go-between.
The Seychelles meeting came after private discussions in New York involving high-ranking representatives of Trump, Moscow and the Emirates.
The White House has acknowledged that Michael T. Flynn, Trump’s original national security adviser, and Trump adviser and son-in-law Jared Kushner met with the Russian ambassador to the United States, Sergey Kislyak, in late November or early December in New York.
Flynn and Kushner were joined by Bannon for a separate meeting with the crown prince of Abu Dhabi, Sheikh Mohamed bin Zayed al-Nahyan, who made an undisclosed visit to New York later in December, according to the U.S., European and Arab officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss sensitive matters.
In an unusual breach of protocol, the UAE did not notify the Obama administration in advance of the visit, though officials found out because Zayed’s name appeared on a flight manifest.
Officials said Zayed and his brother, the UAE’s national security adviser, coordinated the Seychelles meeting with Russian government officials with the goal of establishing an unofficial back channel between Trump and Putin.
Officials said Zayed wanted to be helpful to both leaders who had talked about working more closely together, a policy objective long advocated by the crown prince. The UAE, which sees Iran as one of its main enemies, also shared the Trump team’s interest in finding ways to drive a wedge between Moscow and Tehran.
Zayed met twice with Putin in 2016, according to Western officials, and urged the Russian leader to work more closely with the Emirates and Saudi Arabia — an effort to isolate Iran.
At the time of the Seychelles meeting and for weeks afterward, the UAE believed that Prince had the blessing of the new administration to act as its unofficial representative. The Russian participant was a person whom Zayed knew was close to Putin from his interactions with both men, the officials said.
When the Seychelles meeting took place, official contacts between members of the incoming Trump administration and the Russian government were under intense scrutiny, both from federal investigators and the press.
Less than a week before the Seychelles meeting, U.S. intelligence agencies released a report accusing Russia of intervening clandestinely during the 2016 election to help Trump win the White House.
The FBI was already investigating communications between Flynn and Kislyak. The Washington Post’s David Ignatius first disclosed those communications on Jan. 12, around the time of the Seychelles meeting. Flynn was subsequently fired by Trump for misleading Vice President Pence and others about his discussions with Kislyak .
Yousef Al Otaiba, the UAE’s ambassador in Washington, declined to comment.
Government officials in the Seychelles said they were not aware of any meetings between Trump and Putin associates in the country around Jan. 11. But they said luxury resorts on the island are ideal for clandestine gatherings like the one described by the U.S., European and Arab officials.
“I wouldn’t be surprised at all,” said Barry Faure, the Seychelles secretary of state for foreign affairs. “The Seychelles is the kind of place where you can have a good time away from the eyes of the media. That’s even printed in our tourism marketing. But I guess this time you smelled something.”
Trump has dismissed the investigations of Russia’s role in the election as “fake news” and a “witch hunt.”
The level of discretion surrounding the Seychelles meeting seems extraordinary given the frequency with which senior Trump advisers, including Flynn and Kushner, had interacted with Russian officials in the United States, including at the high-profile Trump Tower in New York.
Steven Simon, a National Security Council senior director for the Middle East and North Africa in the Obama White House, said: “The idea of using business cutouts, or individuals perceived to be close political leaders, as a tool of diplomacy is as old as the hills. These unofficial channels are desirable precisely because they are deniable; ideas can be tested without the risk of failure.”
Current and former U.S. officials said that while Prince refrained from playing a direct role in the Trump transition, his name surfaced so frequently in internal discussions that he seemed to function as an outside adviser whose opinions were valued on a range of issues, including plans for overhauling the U.S. intelligence community.
He appears to have particularly close ties to Bannon, appearing multiple times as a guest on Bannon’s satellite radio program over the past year as well as in articles on the Breitbart Web site that Bannon ran before joining the Trump campaign.
In a July interview with Bannon, Prince said those seeking forceful U.S. leadership should “wait till January and hope Mr. Trump is elected.” And he lashed out at President Barack Obama, saying that because of his policies “the terrorists, the fascists, are winning.”
Days before the November election, Prince appeared on Bannon’s program again, saying that he had “well-placed sources” in the New York City Police Department telling him they were preparing to make arrests in the investigation of former congressman Anthony Weiner (D-N.Y.) over allegations he exchanged sexually explicit texts with a minor. Flynn tweeted a link to the Breitbart report on the claim. No arrests occurred.
Prince went on to make a series of unfounded assertions that damaging material recovered from Weiner’s computers would implicate Hillary Clinton and her close adviser, Huma Abedin, who was married to Weiner. He also called Abedin an “agent of influence very sympathetic to the Muslim Brotherhood.”
Prince and his family were major GOP donors in 2016. The Center for Responsive Politics reported that the family gave more than $10 million to GOP candidates and super PA Cs, including about $2.7 million from his sister, De Vos, and her husband.
Prince’s father, Edgar Prince, built his fortune through an auto-parts company. Betsy married Richard De Vos Jr., heir to the Amway fortune.
Erik Prince has had lucrative contracts with the UAE government, which at one point paid his firm a reported $529 million to help bring in foreign fighters to help assemble an internal paramilitary force capable of carrying out secret operations and protecting Emirati installations from terrorist attacks.
The Trump administration and the UAE appear to share a similar preoccupation with Iran. Current and former officials said that Trump advisers were focused throughout the transition period on exploring ways to get Moscow to break ranks with Tehran.
“Separating Russia from Iran was a common theme,” said a former intelligence official in the Obama administration who met with Trump transition officials. “It didn’t seem very well thought out. It seemed a little premature. They clearly had a very specific policy position, which I found odd given that they hadn’t even taken the reins and explored with experts in the U.S. government the pros and cons of that approach.”
Michael Mc Faul, former U.S. ambassador to Russia, said he also had discussions with people close to the Trump administration about the prospects of drawing Russia away from Iran. “When I would hear this, I would think, ‘Yeah that’s great for you guys, but why would Putin ever do that?’ ” Mc Faul said. “There is no interest in Russia ever doing that. They have a long relationship with Iran. They’re allied with Iran in fighting in Syria. They sell weapons to Iran. Iran is an important strategic partner for Russia in the Middle East.”
Following the New York meeting between the Emiratis and Trump aides, Zayed was approached by Prince, who said he was authorized to act as an unofficial surrogate for the president-elect, according to the officials. He wanted Zayed to set up a meeting with a Putin associate. Zayed agreed and proposed the Seychelles as the meeting place because of the privacy it would afford both sides. “He wanted to be helpful,” one official said of Zayed.
Wealthy Russians and Emirati royalty have a particularly large footprint on the islands. Signs advertising deep-sea fishing trips are posted in Cyrillic. Russian billionaire Mikhail Prokhorov owns North Island, where Prince William and Catherine, Duchess of Cambridge, went on their honeymoon in 2011. Sheikh Khalifa bin Zayed al-Nahyan, president of the UAE, built a hilltop palace for himself with views across the chain of islands.
The Emiratis have given hundreds of millions of dollars to the Seychelles in recent years for causes including public health and affordable housing. But when the Emirati royal family visits, they are rarely seen.
“The jeep comes to their private jet on the tarmac and they disappear,” said one Seychellois official who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he did not want to be seen as criticizing the Emiratis.
Zayed, the crown prince, owns a share of the Seychelles’ Four Seasons, a collection of private villas scattered on a lush hillside on the main island’s southern shore, overlooking the Indian Ocean, according to officials in the Seychelles. The hotel is tucked away on a private beach, far from the nearest public road.
Current and former U.S. officials who have worked closely with Zayed, who is often referred to as MBZ, say it would be out of character for him to arrange the Jan. 11 meeting without getting a green light in advance from top aides to Trump and Putin, if not the leaders themselves. “MBZ is very cautious,” said an American businessman who knows Zayed. “There had to be a nod.”
The Seychelles meeting was deemed productive by the UAE and Russia but the idea of arranging additional meetings between Prince and Putin’s associates was dropped, officials said. Even unofficial contacts between Trump and Putin associates had become too politically risky, officials said.
Sieff reported from the Seychelles. Julie Tate, Devlin Barrett, Matea Gold, Tom Hamburger and Rosalind S. Helderman contributed to this report.
edited 3rd Apr '17 2:14:21 PM by Krieger22
I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiotOh come on. This is just insane. You're one step away from jumping into the same pool of people who think every protest is funded by George Soros.
I mean the Justice Democrats have only raised 1 million dollars thus far in several months. You're creating a bogeyman.

What's the matter with the Justice Democrats?
Others have made points on some of the bigger issues, so I'll say the movement's been infiltrated by the alt-right, since Sargon Of Akkad endorsed it.
Also, I am from Argentina: my country has a history with tribalized political movements both on the left and right and the Justice Democrats ring way too many bells on the "tribalist left" in my head for me to trust them. As soon as one of them takes office, I'd be looking to their financies to see if they're funneling money to TYT, which is something that has happened with similar movements in my country.
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV