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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179951: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:42:17 PM

And it also seems like common sense to me. If you read accounts by academics and journalists who have spend some significant amount of time among white working class/rural communities (Strangers in Their Own Land, Hillbilly Elegy) what seems to bother these people the most is the perception that no one is listening to them or cares about their interests. It may be a perceptual thing- the media talks about marginalized people far more often that working class or white, and when the economy leaves them behind, they feel left out. Some of it is racism, some of it is the result of systematic opinion manipulation that has gone unopposed for two generations, and some of it is real. Two points:

1) The Dems, to say nothing of Progressives, can win, ever, if they do not find a way to appeal to at least a fraction of the White Middle Class. They are the largest bloc of voters, and will be for at least another generation. We dont need to flip them all, or even most, we just need enough.

2) Do not make the mistake of assuming that right-wing voters cannot change their views. By and large they are no more ignorant, inflexible or evil than any other randomly chosen community of humans. If you believe that democracy works, then you have to find a way to persuade people who fundamentally do not agree with you. Because that's the game we are playing.

We dont need to "pander", whatever that means in this context. Nor do we have to abandon our marginalized political allies. Indeed, that would be political suicide, since we absolutely need their votes too. The trick is to find a truth that everyone can agree on. This changes depending on the issue. And remember that emotion matters more than technical details.

For example, it is absolutely true that the ACA has flaws, one of which is that there were a group of people who made too little money to easily afford the same premiums and deductibles that upper middle income people can afford, while yet making too much money to qualify for medicaid or the subsidies. By and large these are people working for small to medium sized businesses, who weren't required to offer their employees a health care benefit. "Working Class" is an apt description, and they fell between the cracks more often than they should have. Of course that generated resentment, and of course that should have been addressed. That it wasn't was more due to Republican resistance than the Democrats is irrelevant. Those progressives who did speak up for them didn't get much media airtime, which made them easy targets for the right-wing opinion manipulation machine.

On the other hand, it has become more clear to such voters that the Republican leadership has lied to them, and never had any intention of helping them at all. So they voted for a guy who at least promised to "shake things up". Most of the republican voters I know and have spoken to didn't really vote for Trump, they voted against what they see as the Washington DC establishment. Dont forget that Cruz and Rubio lost too.

We need to find the opportunity here, and leverage it. There is absolutely a way to defend human rights, protect minorities and appeal to white voters too. Otherwise we would never have passed Civil Rights. 2)

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179952: Mar 28th 2017 at 3:45:32 PM

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/03/28/sean-spicer-loses-his-cool-stop-shaking-your-head/

Seems Sean Spicer's getting ready to snap.

Excerpt:

White House press secretary Sean Spicer finally seemed to reach a breaking point Tuesday when it comes to questions about President Trump and Russia.

Spicer got testy in an exchange with American Urban Radio Networks reporter April Ryan after Ryan announced a premise that Spicer disagreed with: that the White House has a Russia issue to deal with. By the end, Spicer accused Ryan of pushing her own agenda and even instructed her not to shake her head at him.

“No, we don't have that,” Spicer said when Ryan cited the White House's Russia issue. When Ryan continued with her question, he cut in again: “No, no. I get it. But I've said it from the day that I got here until whenever that there's not a connection. You've got Russia.”

Spicer then offered this zinger: “If the president puts Russian salad dressing on his salad tonight, somehow that's a Russian connection.”

When Ryan tried again to ask her question, Spicer said, “I appreciate your agenda here. … At some point, report the facts.”

Spicer pointed to those who have said there is no proof of collusion between Russia and the Trump team — which is true but is only a part of the inquiries and is still being investigated by the FBI. He added, “I'm sorry that that disgusts you. You're shaking your head.”

Spicer then told Ryan that she was “going to have to take no for an answer” when it came to the idea of collusion with Russia.

http://thehill.com/homenews/house/326184-first-gop-lawmaker-calls-for-nunes-to-recuse-himself?amp

First GOP lawmaker calls for Nunes to recuse himself

edited 28th Mar '17 3:56:58 PM by sgamer82

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#179953: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:14:17 PM

I'm sorry, but I'm a little lost on this Nunes story. Why should he recuse himself?

Do not obey in advance.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179954: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:19:09 PM

I forget all the specifics, but he's part of a the House Intelligence Committee looking into Russian election meddling and took something he learned straight to the White House without going through channels.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#179955: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:24:03 PM

[up][up] Nunes was the man who last week said he had evidence that Trump was spied on by the CIA 'incidentally', which every Republican stooge took to mean his tweets about Obama wiretapping him was right. Nunes said that wasn't the case, and everyone pointed that his move of informing the President and the Press during an investigation was abnormal. Nunes had to apologies twice over it and promised to provide his evidence, but he hasn't so far... Because on Friday, he said he didn't have it; he said he learned of it from a 'viable' source and was trying to get the information from that source... Which, as of Monday, turned out to be someone from the Freakin' White House!

Nunes absolutely needs to recuse himself from the Trump-Russia investigation, at best.

EDIT: Oh, and now he will not say who gave him the information or how they got it.

edited 28th Mar '17 4:28:49 PM by DingoWalley1

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#179956: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:41:31 PM

[up] WH informant > Nunes > WH. A circular path of information that reek of incompetence. I'd say reclusion isn't enough, but I want to know if Nunes had any displays of competence before this case first.

ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#179957: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:46:19 PM

Yeah, I was disappointed to find out that my Congressmember voted in favor of that privacy repeal.

Also, as a matter of convenience, 538 has a way for people to track their House member's votes in the age of Trump, as well as marking whether or not it fell in line with Trump's point of view.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179958: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:52:24 PM

That said, I paid relatively little attention to Sanders (in 2016 and now). That's pure conjecture based upon him adopting the label "socialist" and occasionally adopting the old talking points.

Bernie is definitely a socialist but he campaigned on more of a social democrat platform.

I think he knows that an actual socialist platform isn't popular in America.

On the other hand, he's definitely increased socialist membership.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179959: Mar 28th 2017 at 4:59:13 PM

Also concerning WWC from the New York Times:

In the aftermath of the 2016 presidential election, many analysts suggested that Hillary Clinton lost to Donald J. Trump because of poor Democratic turnout.

Months later, it is clear that the turnout was only modestly better for Mr. Trump than expected.

To the extent Democratic turnout was weak, it was mainly among black voters. Even there, the scale of Democratic weakness has been exaggerated.

Instead, it’s clear that large numbers of white, working-class voters shifted from the Democrats to Mr. Trump. Over all, almost one in four of President Obama’s 2012 white working-class supporters defected from the Democrats in 2016, either supporting Mr. Trump or voting for a third-party candidate.

This analysis compares official voter files — data not available until months after the election — with The Upshot’s pre-election turnout projections in Florida, Pennsylvania and North Carolina. The turnout patterns evident in these states are representative of broader trends throughout the battleground states and nationwide.

Tldr; The only part of Democratic turnout was weak was actually among African-American voters.

Among 1 in 4 White working class supporters from the Democratic Party defected in 2016. These were all 2012 Obama voters that flipped to Trump or a third party.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#179960: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:02:13 PM

Which is why before people start condemning the Rust Belt as a whole as ignorant traitors, remember that Trump only won some of those states by a few thousand votes.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179961: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:16:22 PM

And a lot of them voted for Obama before him.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#179962: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:17:48 PM

From what I've read, it wasn't so much the "white working class" that supported Trump, and more the "white middle class who are afraid of falling into the working class".

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#179963: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:36:04 PM

Meh. This only supports De Marquis's earlier point.
Also that[up]
Trump officials shut down Russia testimony by Sally Yates, citing executive privilege

So it turns out it wasn’t that the House Intelligence Committee wasn’t interested in hearing the testimony from Sally Yates, the former acting attorney general from Atlanta who refused to enforce President Donald Trump’s first travel ban.

Rather, the Trump administration didn’t want her to talk at all. From the Washington Post:

"According to letters The Post reviewed, the Justice Department notified Yates earlier this month that the administration considers a great deal of her possible testimony to be barred from discussion in a congressional hearing because the topics are covered by the presidential communication privilege…

Yates and another witness at the planned hearing, former CIA director John Brennan, had made clear to government officials by Thursday that their testimony to the committee probably would contradict some statements that White House officials had made, according to a person familiar with the matter who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The following day, when Yates’s lawyer sent a letter to the White House indicating that she still wanted to testify, the hearing was canceled."

The panel’s chairman, U.S. Rep. Devin Nunes, R-Calif., refused to say whether the White House asked him to scrap the hearing:

Just a summary of today's episode... Links to letters in the article itself.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#179964: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:43:10 PM

[up]

Note - they're attempting to, it's not a done deal yet, largely due to how broad a scope they'd be applying to "attorney-client privilege" in this case.

And as indicated above, the reason for the edit is that their objection isn't on Executive privilege, but rather attorney-client privilege.

David O’Neil, an attorney for Yates, met at the Justice Department to discuss the issue with government officials on Thursday. At the meeting, O’Neil presented a letter in which he said the Justice Department had “advised” him that Yates’s official communications on issues of interest to the House panel are “client confidences” that cannot be disclosed without written consent. O’Neil challenged that interpretation as “overbroad” in the letter.

edited 28th Mar '17 5:46:07 PM by ironballs16

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179965: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:45:55 PM

[up]Another case of damned if they do,damned if they don't. They're damned if they let her speak, but they're still damned if they don't, as that would just show they really do have something to hide.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179966: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:50:36 PM

The white working class are the ones who defected to Trump and third party candidates.

The white middle class and upper class is the real base of Trump's support.

So Bernie's rhetoric about it being a class divide is kinda true.

I think both sides are just half the argument. There is a racial and a class divide in America.you have to mend the two somehow or throw one side under the bus.

I think Obama voters part of the WWC who flipped are less likely to be part of the racist segment of the population and more likely just ignorant and desperate rather than hateful.

henry42 [REDACTED] from Western Hemisphere Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: It's not my fault I'm not popular!
[REDACTED]
#179967: Mar 28th 2017 at 5:57:27 PM

The white working class are the ones who defected to Trump and third party candidates.

The working class are the ones who generally don't vote.

One does not shake the box containing the sticky notes of doom!
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#179968: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:01:58 PM

[up][up]

I'm not sure of a good source for this, but I've seen a lot of discussion to the effect that the "Obama Trump voters" were people who voted for Obama in spite of racist views and saw their vote a way of absolving themselves or racism, and then turned on him/Democrats when he subsequently spoke about racial inequality.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179969: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:05:44 PM

Well according to the article I was talking about white turnout was up in 2016:

The increase in white turnout was broad, including among young voters, Democrats, Republicans, unaffiliated voters, urban, rural, and the likeliest supporters of Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Trump. The greatest increases were among young and unaffiliated white voters.

For this reason alone, it’s hard to argue that turnout was responsible for the preponderance of Mr. Trump’s gains among white voters. The turnout among young and white Democratic voters was quite strong.

But the turnout was generally stronger among the likeliest white Trump supporters than among the likeliest white Clinton supporters.

So African-American turnout was down and white turnout was up across all groups.

And according to this article, Hispanic turnout stayed the same but Trump gained 2 % extra of the Hispanic vote compared to Romney:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/442384/hispanic-turnout-disappoints-democrats-undermines-permanent-majority-theory

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179971: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:08:03 PM

"I think Obama voters part of the WWC who flipped are less likely to be part of the racist segment of the population and more likely just ignorant and desperate rather than hateful."

Emphasis on "desperate".

edited 28th Mar '17 6:08:41 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#179972: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:09:17 PM

It would be a huge irony if this turned into a "the cover up is far more incriminating than what they actually did" sort of situation. Because, like, sometimes the best way to go is "yeah, I did the thing, it wasn't a big deal" instead of trying to cover it up and look like you're ashamed you did it.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179973: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:11:21 PM

In this case, I doubt it. Right now I'm watching "All The President's Men." The parallels are uncanny.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#179974: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:12:27 PM

Separate from racism, I think there's a large portion of American voters who just "voted for something different" without putting any more thought into it.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#179975: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:13:17 PM

[up][up][up] If it weren't such a big deal, someone from the Administration would've spilled the beans about it by now in an attempt to end all this. Even if Trump didn't like it, someone would've done it to get the heat off Trump.

I can only assume that there is something big going on. I don't know what; it could be Russian Ties, it could be anything at this point, but it has to be something big.

edited 28th Mar '17 6:13:56 PM by DingoWalley1


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