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Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#179876: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:32:04 AM

[up] Do you mean now, specifically, or in general? Home ownership has long been seen as the Holy Grail of the middle class, since it has numerous social benefits as well as potential economic benefits. The mortgage interest deduction has been a primary vehicle for this agenda, as it substantially increases the value of home that the typical family can afford.

There has been some push-back against it, however. Homes are supposed to be an asset, generating long-term equity value for owners, but as we saw in 2006, an excessive push towards home ownership can cause dangerous bubbles to form in real-estate, potentially wiping out trillions in personal assets and sending those same owners into a spiral of personal debt defaults.

Incomes have also not kept pace with home prices. Not too many decades ago, the average mortgage represented only a year or two of wages for the typical family. Now it's more like 4-10 years. And home ownership also reduces labor mobility. Renters can pick up and move without too much hassle, but a homeowner is tied to a limited geographical region unless they go through the significant time and financial burdens of selling. With the way commissions and other costs work, you're losing 7-8 percent of the value of your home whenever you sell it, not counting any repairs or improvements that may be needed.

My family moved to our current state of residence over nine years ago, and we have yet to sell the house we bought back where we came from. We refinanced at the height of the housing bubble and have only now managed to get above water on paper, and we still can't afford to pay the commission even if we managed to sell it "as-is". Short sale? Kiss our credit rating goodbye, and we may not even be allowed to given our income.

So it's not an automatic "always buy" thing. It can be good, but renting carries substantial benefits if you expect to be highly mobile or have not "settled down".

edited 28th Mar '17 6:33:39 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#179877: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:35:16 AM

[up][up]

The issue of limited mobility Fighteer brought up is mentioned. It also brings up the point that a mortgage essentially makes the bank your landlord.

edited 28th Mar '17 6:37:29 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179878: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:52:37 AM

Do you mean now, specifically, or in general?
Honest answer: I had no idea at the time I asked.

That said, your response Fighteer seems to confirm something I've long suspected: owning a home is potentially more trouble than it's worth.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#179879: Mar 28th 2017 at 6:57:04 AM

Part of the issue is that owning your own home used to be one of the ways to show everyone "I made it! I fulfilled the American Dream!" So not owning a home meant you were the biggest loser ever. You had failed at life.

Disgusted, but not surprised
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#179880: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:07:44 AM

It's not like living in apartments is cheap, though. Anymore, you're looking at $800 minimum per month, and it's even more than that in some urban areas. There's an apartment tower in my area that costs $1,700 a month... for a STUDIO. That's highway robbery.

Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#179881: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:08:29 AM

Well, from my perspective, I would like to see the arrangements (such as the mortgage interest deduction) that drive the purchase of homes burned to the ground, for social rather than individual reasons. Because housing is a need and a very inelastic one, people who are not property owners suffer when property values are high - and conversely, there's a strong perverse incentive for homeowners to oppose cheap housing, especially public housing, because it drives down the value of their homes.

So as a society, we need to aggressively de-investmentize housing. However, so doing would be really, really damn tricky - getting rid of the mortgage interest deduction will absolutely nuke the market as it is right now, which in turn will cause another bank crisis as homeowners start mailing in the keys to now-devalued houses.

[up]This fact is partly driven by our homeownership society. The value placed on homes raises the price of housing in general, including the price of substitutes for home ownership.

edited 28th Mar '17 7:11:14 AM by Ramidel

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#179882: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:22:17 AM

[G]etting rid of the mortgage interest deduction will absolutely nuke the market as it is right now, which in turn will cause another bank crisis as homeowners start mailing in the keys to now-devalued houses.

Yes, this is a critical problem. It would push vast numbers of current mortgages into unaffordability, causing a market crash that would make 2006-2008 look puny. Moreover, it would punish responsible homeowners as much as or even more than "irresponsible" ones, which was a major scapegoat used to deflect blame for the 2006 crisis.

It would also make existing homes much harder to sell, locking current homeowners into their properties even more than they are already.

edited 28th Mar '17 7:22:50 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#179883: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:22:29 AM

As does insufficient house building. Apparently the US produces twice as many jobs as dwellings. Some places like California (and soon Florida, apparently) plainly don't have enough houses for all the people there, thanks to overzealous red tape and a dislike for high density housing. And the problem with changing that latter pattern is that it's difficult to replace existing housing.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#179884: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:30:20 AM

Well, as I mentioned, insufficient housing construction is partly driven by homeowner NIMBY, since their property values are so skyhigh because there isn't enough housing for everyone. That's what's fucking over San Francisco right now.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#179886: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:40:13 AM

In terms of serious policy proposals, Jerry Brown did propose a major overhaul of planning procedures that would have stripped local authorities of most of their authority on the topic. Nobody in the California legislature was willing to touch this, although a newby state senator from San Fran is apparently trying again.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#179887: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:40:58 AM

[up][up]wihout that link I will think you were quoting a trump or ryan speech

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179888: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:43:39 AM

[up]Nah. I could maybe buy Ryan spouting that crap, but not Trump. If only because he's not nearly as well-spoken.tongue

tclittle Professional Forum Ninja from Somewhere Down in Texas Since: Apr, 2010
Professional Forum Ninja
#179889: Mar 28th 2017 at 7:50:22 AM

Washington Post: Trump administration sought to block former acting U.S. Attorney General Sally Yates from testifying to Congress over Russian links.

"We're all paper, we're all scissors, we're all fightin' with our mirrors, scared we'll never find somebody to love."
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179890: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:00:11 AM

[up]...They're close, aren't they?

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#179893: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:02:47 AM

Everybody knows that the most surefire way to make an accusation worse is to vehemently deny it at every turn. The proper way to deal with it is to meet the accusation head-on and counter with reasoned arguments and evidence. The way Trump's administration keeps blocking these hearings shows that there's something they're hiding, and they really don't want people to find out what it is.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179894: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:03:05 AM

[up][up]Not entirely sure, hence the question

edited 28th Mar '17 8:03:18 AM by sgamer82

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#179895: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:12:11 AM

There absolutely has to be something that Trump is hiding. It may not be direct ties with Russia, but it's gotta be something. We've never had a President deflect this badly. I don't even think Nixon was this bad!

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#179896: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:15:29 AM

It also have to be with the strongman vibe they have, they dont want people to said anything about them so they silence people, which show you how authoritarian they have become.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Ramidel Since: Jan, 2001
#179897: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:16:58 AM

[up][up][up][up]Evidence doesn't work, this isn't the '90s. The only thing that works is lying so fast and so often that any particular accusation loses its weight and people stop caring.

edited 28th Mar '17 8:17:09 AM by Ramidel

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#179898: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:51:12 AM

US Supreme Court Rules in Favor of Death Row Inmate who is too mentally disabled to be sentenced to Death. They also ruled that all states must use Medical Expertise when determining if a Person is or isn't mentally disabled, especially when the Death Penalty is involved.

fredhot16 Don't want to leave but cannot pretend from Baton Rogue, Louisiana. Since: Jan, 2015 Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Don't want to leave but cannot pretend
#179899: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:58:09 AM

To all people old enough to remember the last government shutdown, could you please be kind enough to share your stories of that time?

Trans rights are human rights. TV Tropes is not a place for bigotry, cruelty, or dickishness, no matter who or their position.
LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#179900: Mar 28th 2017 at 8:58:49 AM

That was like, last year.

Oh really when?

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