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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#179051: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:26:49 PM

Okay. So I'm not wrong for being confused at the application of "antisemitic" to refer to a smear campaign against Muslims. Good to know.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#179052: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:50:36 PM

"Well they kinda do have the better policies but you know I'm a progressive."

Most of us here are progressives. Please don't pull a No True Scotsman argument, not here. Further, most of us agree in principle with the views of Bernie and co. However, where we often disagree is the feasibility and/or practicality of many of those ideas. A lot of what the Justice Democrats/progressive left/whatever you want to call them demands to have is dependent on a political revolution — a "throw the bums out" approach that would cause far more harm and disruption to the system than it would create in benefits.

I kept telling this to people during the election and getting the same blank stares. Just because you want something to happen and consider it the natural, correct way for things to be does not mean that other voters share your views. They do get a say in the process — that's the basic principle of our democracy. If you tear the system down and throw a revolution, then all the folks on the right get just as much say as you do, and you'll find that you will simply not get most of what you want done. Indeed, you might cause the opposite of the intended effect.

We saw that in this election, as the disruption to the Clinton campaign caused by the #BernieOrBusters helped foment the idea that Clinton was corrupt and kept desperately needed Democratic voters home. Hell, Jill Stein even went so far as to say Trump would be better than Clinton, or at least imply it. (Never mind that she's also reputedly cozy with Putin — the horseshoe effect is very real.)

By insisting on breaking the system to get your way, you broke the system in the opposite way. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero!.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#179053: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:53:55 PM

Nunes: Trump's transition team was under surveillance during Obama administration

They're just gonna use this to justify their "wiretap" BS

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#179054: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:57:59 PM

Maybe. It might also lead to more dirt on Trump.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#179055: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:59:07 PM

The thing about surveillance is that, if it was legally authorized, and there's actual illegal material uncovered, then it's generally considered justified.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#179056: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:06:23 PM

And even that GOP chairman said it was probably legal.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179057: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:27:28 PM

Most of us here are progressives. Please don't pull a No True Scotsman argument, not here. Further, most of us agree in principle with the views of Bernie and co. However, where we often disagree is the feasibility and/or practicality of many of those ideas. A lot of what the Justice Democrats/progressive left/whatever you want to call them demands to have is dependent on a political revolution — a "throw the bums out" approach that would cause far more harm and disruption to the system than it would create in benefits.

Eh. Many of you seem resigned to corporate control when the Republicans' deep dive into corporate pockets is what led us to Trump. It's an issue that I've seen downplayed here or used to mock "the Unicorn Brigade". You know I don't actually want a bunch of moderate Democrats willing to compromise with a party of lunatics.

I kept telling this to people during the election and getting the same blank stares. Just because you want something to happen and consider it the natural, correct way for things to be does not mean that other voters share your views. They do get a say in the process — that's the basic principle of our democracy. If you tear the system down and throw a revolution, then all the folks on the right get just as much say as you do, and you'll find that you will simply not get most of what you want done. Indeed, you might cause the opposite of the intended effect. We saw that in this election, as the disruption to the Clinton campaign caused by the #Bernie Or Busters helped foment the idea that Clinton was corrupt and kept desperately needed Democratic voters home. Hell, Jill Stein even went so far as to say Trump would be better than Clinton, or at least imply it. (Never mind that she's also reputedly cozy with Putin — the horseshoe effect is very real.) By insisting on breaking the system to get your way, you broke the system in the opposite way. Nice Job Breaking It, Hero!.

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you and then you win."

danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#179058: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:32:08 PM

[up]Politicians not under the control of corporations is better than politicians who are, and competent, well-meaning politicians are better than politicians who are either stupid and/or evil. However, in this situation we have to go for gradual change or else we'll get no change at all. Also, your last line stinks of Internet tough guy-ism and is not applicable at all.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#179059: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:37:22 PM

I know he did.

Then kindly don't give me "But the NRA couldn't control him". Sanders flat out voted with their interests.

As I said those were specifically Bernie or Busters. I don't see that anger at Warren anywhere on the progressive side at the moment.

Have you seen Our Revolution or the Justice Democrats?

Well they kinda do have the better policies but you know I'm a progressive.

Then why do they keep losing? At some point you need to make a compromise with reality.

Because Obama and his compatriots specifically pushed Perez so they could retain control of the DNC because Keith Ellison was too left for their tastes and part of Sanders' side.

Oh, for God's sake. Stop repeating these talking points at me. Ellison and Perez agree on like 95 percent of the issues. There's no evidence Perez is some evil establishment puppet. Did you ever consider he ran because he wants the job?

And while Ellison was made Deputy chair of the DNC, it's up in the air on how much influence he really does have. He has as much influence as Perez let's him have.

Where has Perez indicated he won't give Ellison influence? That's another thing that makes me roll my eyes about these people: constant insinuation of conspiracy theory without any evidence. Step 1? Complain you aren't represented. Step 2: claim anything given to you is just a deception, man.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#179060: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:37:34 PM

Also, there is no substantive evidence that HRC was "under the control of corporations". Giving speeches doesn't count, folks.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#179061: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:38:03 PM

Damn, how do I quote?

edited 22nd Mar '17 1:38:45 PM by Lightysnake

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179062: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:38:48 PM

Politicians not under the control of corporations is better than politicians who are, and competent, well-meaning politicians are better than politicians who are either stupid and/or evil. However, in this situation we have to go for gradual change or else we'll get no change at all.

That's a promise that won't necessarily bear out and the gradual change that Dems might push might not be for the better.

Recently, you had a group of Southern Democrats meeting and concluding that voters don't actually care about tuition free colleges which seems rather ludicrous to me.

Also, your last line stinks of Internet tough guy-ism and is not applicable at all.

You know it's funny but that quote is attributable to Gandhi although he never uttered it. It was used to describe what happened with him.

And Bernie and Trump's staff at different times quoted it on their twitters during the election. Evidently, it was true in Trump's case.

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#179063: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:41:45 PM

Wow, you mean to tell me Southern constitutents have different priorities than you?

And this is why I roll my eyes at these Justice Democrats. The ones who can't even comprehend that others have different priorities than a Vermonter socialist.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179064: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:41:52 PM

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/two-ohio-coal-burning-power-plants-bite-the-dust/

Two Ohio Coal Burning Power Plants Bite The Dust

NEW YORK - Electricity company Dayton Power & Light said on Monday it would shut down two coal-fired power plants in southern Ohio next year for economic reasons, a setback for the ailing coal industry but a victory for environmental activists.

Republican President Donald Trump promised in his election campaign to restore U.S. coal jobs that he said had been destroyed by environmental regulations put into effect by his Democratic predecessor, Barack Obama.

Dayton Power & Light, a subsidiary of AES Corp. (AES), said in an emailed statement that it planned to close the J.M. Stuart and Killen plants by June 2018 because they would not be “economically viable beyond mid-2018.”

SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#179065: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:49:55 PM

Okay, now that some people are arguing in a rational way (not contradicting facts or making inaccurate accusations), maybe I can still post here after all. I guess I'll just try to be strategic about who I respond to......provided the mods are okay with that (if not, I'll stop).

@178990: First, I don't recall anyone in the movement saying it would be easy. Second, contrary to what you seem to be implying, I don't think most of the Clinton/Obama wing actually wants to move the Overton Window even the tiniest bit left (with rare exceptions like Obama inching the Democrats left on marijuana). It looks to me like what most of them want is to keep the Overton Window exactly where it is.

Thus, in my opinion, we need groups like Justice Democrats and Our Revolution because otherwise, we're stuck between a party that wants to keep the Overton Window in its current location and one that wants to push it rightward, and the latter is much better at messaging and playing politics. If groups like JD don't take off, the Overton Window will just keeping shifting rightward until we're a fascist state.

If you tear the system down and throw a revolution, then all the folks on the right get just as much say as you do, and you'll find that you will simply not get most of what you want done. Indeed, you might cause the opposite of the intended effect.

I don't understand what you mean. Most of the people you're talking about don't want to "tear the system down" in the sense of getting rid of the current structure of government or doing away with elections. We want to use that system to put people with different ideas in power. Primaries and elections are the methods we're using, and the right already has just as much say in those as we do. But I'm probably misunderstanding what you're saying. It sounds like you're implying that the JD-type movement wants to have an armed rebellion against the government, but I'm guessing that's not actually what you mean, so could you please clarify?

edited 22nd Mar '17 1:57:28 PM by SeriesOfNumbers

danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#179066: Mar 22nd 2017 at 1:51:23 PM

Repeal all the environmental regulations he wants, there's nothing Trump can do to make coal actually profitable again, which is what's really killing the industry, not regulation.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179067: Mar 22nd 2017 at 2:01:48 PM

Then kindly don't give me "But the NRA couldn't control him". Sanders flat out voted with their interests.

The NRA admits that they have no influence over him and regret helping put him in power. Bernie votes the way he does more because the people of Vermont are pro-gun. I'm not sure what his actual beliefs on the issue are. I think he feels compromised by it because he doesn't seem comfortable by it. I thought he was in the NRA's pocket at first but reading the articles, he's just being a populist in this case.

And the NRA has opposed Bernie every time after that first Senate election he won for them.

Have you seen Our Revolution or the Justice Democrats?

Cenk/the Justice Democrats support Warren. I dunno about Our Revolution.

Then why do they keep losing? At some point you need to make a compromise with reality.

Why do the Establishment Dems keep losing to the Republicans? I guess the Republicans have better policies than the Dems, huh? tongue

Oh, for God's sake. Stop repeating these talking points at me. Ellison and Perez agree on like 95 percent of the issues. There's no evidence Perez is some evil establishment puppet. Did you ever consider he ran because he wants the job?

I never said he was evil.

We already know that Perez ran because Obama told him to. If he really wanted the job then I don't think he'd need Obama to go tell him to run.

Where has Perez indicated he won't give Ellison influence? That's another thing that makes me roll my eyes about these people: constant insinuation of conspiracy theory without any evidence. Step 1? Complain you aren't represented. Step 2: claim anything given to you is just a deception, man.

Here's my overall main point:

We officially live in an illiberal democracy. We are not the party's main constituents. We are special interests. Private business is the national interest.

A corporation's main goal is to maximize profits for their shareholders. It is an organism designed to put money over people and would tie you to the train tracks if that meant an extra dollar. Government is the only thing regulating businesses which tends to limit profit. Therefore it is in a corporation's best interest to vote in politicians to deregulate and promote right wing ideologies, start wars or push "free trade agreements" that promote their international interests. It's not a conspiracy. It's just a thing that they all inevitably try to do.

Democrats are internally fighting corporate power within their party but Republicans have gone so deep into their pockets that they only way they can sell their policies to voters is by appealing to evangelicals, white nativists, "patriotism" and pushing a culture war over social issues while they rob their base for their donors.

Trump is a result of these policies. We voted in a corporation that has to appeal to bigots, fanatics and anti-intellectuals to rob the country blind for corporations.

Now you have Mark Zuckerberg and Bob Iger who are both the head of Facebook and Disney respectively wondering whether they should run in 2020 too. The floodgates have been opened.

If we stay the course elections will be voting which corporation would do the best to lead us.

Now I'm going to link to this song by Phil Ochs which is a kind of proletarian fantasy:

edited 22nd Mar '17 2:25:21 PM by MadSkillz

SciFiSlasher from Absolutely none of your business. Since: Dec, 2011 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
#179068: Mar 22nd 2017 at 2:50:35 PM

[up][up]

@178990: First, I don't recall anyone in the movement saying it would be easy. Second, contrary to what you seem to be implying, I don't think most of the Clinton/Obama wing actually wants to move the Overton Window even the tiniest bit left (with rare exceptions like Obama inching the Democrats left on marijuana). It looks to me like what most of them want is to keep the Overton Window exactly where it is.
Oh yeah, because the first President to actually endorse civil rights for LGBT individuals, rolled back the abortion funding gag rule, thawed relations with Cuba after over fifty years, and created the Consumer financial Protection Bureau wants to keep the status quo. Give us a break, Series. Please don't go around acting like the Justice Democrats are some bastion of progressiveness when they're falling in line behind people like Canova and Gabbard because they said nice things about Sanders.

Thus, in my opinion, we need groups like Justice Democrats and Our Revolution because otherwise, we're stuck between a party that wants to keep the Overton Window in its current location and one that wants to push it rightward, and the latter is much better at messaging and playing politics. If groups like JD don't take off, the Overton Window will just keeping shifting rightward until we're a fascist state.
I mean, we've already presented ample evidence that the Justice Democrats understand next to nothing about actual politics in this country and keep acting like people like Gabbard are actually progressive at all, but I guess it's no use presenting anymore of it to you since everything we say to you is met with goalpost-moving and blatant denial.

"Somehow the hated have to walk a tightrope, while those who hate do not."
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#179069: Mar 22nd 2017 at 2:55:50 PM

Guys. Forget about Justice Democrats. They're not that important. You're all acting like every progressive that fights in a primary is going to be a Justice Democrat and that they're going act like Cenk wants them too.

Justice Democrats are just a a subset of progressives.

edited 22nd Mar '17 2:57:19 PM by MadSkillz

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179070: Mar 22nd 2017 at 2:58:47 PM

Frankly, maybe it's naive of me, but I don't care who runs for what as long as they're likely to be competent at their jobs.

edited 22nd Mar '17 3:02:00 PM by sgamer82

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#179071: Mar 22nd 2017 at 3:08:36 PM

Oh yeah, because the first President to actually endorse civil rights for LGBT individuals, rolled back the abortion funding gag rule, thawed relations with Cuba after over fifty years, and created the Consumer financial Protection Bureau wants to keep the status quo. Give us a break, Series. Please don't go around acting like the Justice Democrats are some bastion of progressiveness when they're falling in line behind people like Canova and Gabbard because they said nice things about Sanders.

All of this, and also don't forget the Affordable Care Act. Eight years ago, it was an unthinkable Socialist policy proposed by a Secret Muslim Fake-President with no birth certificate. Now? Even Republican voters are horrified at the prospect of having to live without it.

That, right there, is leftward progress. Obama dragged the Overton Window a little bit to the left while "true progressives" whined and screamed about how he's a weak President and compromises too much and just wants to sell us all out to the corporations.

And we might just lose it all and wind up even further to the right, because those same "progressives" helped deliver us into the Land of Trump.

edited 22nd Mar '17 3:10:05 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Advarielle Homicidal Editor Since: Aug, 2016
Homicidal Editor
#179072: Mar 22nd 2017 at 3:11:53 PM

Illiberal democracy? Do you know what is that in the first place? You've got a country with more than one valid political group that can legitimately oppose each other, so there is a change of leadership, and there is no monopoly. So, it's leaning to the right, but it's still a democracy.

Corporation having an influence in politics isn't enough to make a country become an illiberal democracy. You want real illiberal democracy? Look at Japan, Russia, or Indonesia. (The current president of Indonesia might be able to change things, but I'm not expecting much. The fact that he try is appreciated, though, and who knows he might be able to do it.) Seriously, just because everything isn't going your way, it doesn't mean that your country is no longer a valid democracy.

Only an experienced editor who has a name possesses the ability to truly understand my work - What 90% of writers I'm in charge of said.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#179073: Mar 22nd 2017 at 3:19:37 PM

The effect of Citizens United, and other decisions, are pushing us that way, though.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#179074: Mar 22nd 2017 at 3:25:49 PM

@179034 and 179037: Thank you to the poster of 34, I should have been more specific. On issues like Middle-Eastern wars and nation building, prosecuting corrupt bankers, universal health care, warrantless wiretapping......basically all the issues where my segment of the left disagrees with the Clinton/Obama wing, we see a desire from that wing to preserve the status quo (as Obama did on those first three examples while making the warrantless wiretapping worse).

As for Obamacare, that's actually a former right-wing plan, previously supported by Newt Gingrich and the Heritage Foundation. It's definitely an improvement over what this country had before, but I wouldn't say it shifted the OW to the left. If anything, it may have had the unintended effect of shifting it to the right because Republicans now oppose what used to be their plan just because a Democrat passed it.

Also, it was Clinton who pushed us into the land of Trump. We kept warning you that she was a weak candidate and nominating her was a bad idea, and you didn't listen.

edited 22nd Mar '17 3:29:59 PM by SeriesOfNumbers

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#179075: Mar 22nd 2017 at 3:27:57 PM

If you define "left" as social progress and "right" as conservatism, the ACA shifted the window left by being a step in the right direction towards universal healthcare.

If you define "left" as avoiding anything tainted by Republican fingers, on the other hand, then shifting right becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.

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