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Nov 2023 Mod notice:


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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179001: Mar 22nd 2017 at 9:11:31 AM

The Russian mob was operating out of Trump Tower? How many sketchy connections to Russia does the guy need before it warrants a full investigation? This is getting ridiculous.
To be honest, I never assumed Trump was an active part of what the mob was doing there, just using Trump Tower as a base. More damning to my mind was Trump's being in contact with him long after indictments and Interpol alerts went out.

[up] More sources to go along with Gabbard meeting Assad, to head off any claims of biased sources:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/25/politics/tulsi-gabbard-lead-syria/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/tulsi-gabbard-congress-democrat-visit-syrian-president-bashar-al-assad-questioned/

edited 22nd Mar '17 9:16:08 AM by sgamer82

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#179002: Mar 22nd 2017 at 9:13:31 AM

[up][up][up]Except that every time you link that you prove that Assad won this fight. Assad poisoned the well of the Syrian opposition much like you wish to do for Democrat voters.

How's this?

edited 22nd Mar '17 9:13:43 AM by Krieger22

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179003: Mar 22nd 2017 at 9:21:05 AM

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/03/mattis-defense-hill-republicans-obama-236329

Hill Republicans say they're growing frustrated with Mattis

The Marine general was welcomed as a moderating force in the Trump administration, but his moves to name Obama veterans to Pentagon posts are irritating allies in key committees.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#179004: Mar 22nd 2017 at 9:22:41 AM

How dare he promote people on the basis of competence?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#179005: Mar 22nd 2017 at 9:23:28 AM

[up][up]Figures. Even when the Republicans get a military guy that is ready to go along with what they want, they throw a shitfit when he goes looking for competence instead of cronies.

[up][nja], [nja] everywhere.

edited 22nd Mar '17 9:24:36 AM by ViperMagnum357

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#179006: Mar 22nd 2017 at 9:49:51 AM

One thing I hope James Comey has done is end the irritating consensus of Democrats appointing Republicans to key defense and intel posts

SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#179007: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:08:56 AM

She met with him, and then characterized his opponents as terrorists. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2017/jan/26/tulsi-gabbard-bashar-al-assad-syria-democrats

That's essentially the same as praising him.

I don't see how meeting with someone is praising them. As for calling his opponents terrorists, did you read the link I posted previously?

Besides, attacking someone's opposition isn't the same as praising the person being opposed. If I say that Stalin was an evil man, does that mean I'm praising Hitler? After all, Stalin opposed Hitler. Evil Versus Evil does sometimes happen in real life, and that appears to be what's going on in Syria.

And other issues with her still stand.

My apologies, but I forget what the other issues were. Was it something about her family being homophobic?

Except that every time you link that

I'm pretty sure this is the first time I've linked it. You might be thinking of a different link I've posted previously.

you prove that Assad won this fight.

Thank you, I appreciate the link. But even if the only reason it's the case is because Assad helped make it that way, the fact remains that it IS the case that a large portion of Assad's opposition is just as bad as he is. Will overthrowing him really make anyone's lives better if Al-Nusra or ISIS takes his place?

As for the other link, I don't see how saying we should bomb al-Nusra and ISIS is praising Assad.

Assad poisoned the well of the Syrian opposition much like you wish to do for Democrat voters.

Actually, if you look at the polling data, many of the policies that I and Justice Democrats support are popular with the public (http://www.vox.com/2016/2/3/10904988/bernie-sanders-political-revolution-poll)

If more democratic primary voters listened to people of my political persuasion, it would actually HELP the Democratic Party, provided their candidates could message effectively.

edited 22nd Mar '17 10:10:29 AM by SeriesOfNumbers

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#179008: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:13:40 AM

I'm not going to bother not to be blunt: Gabbard went over, and read this quite closely: met with a dictator, stating his opposition were all terrorists. Do not trying to rules lawyer this and spare me an inane comparison to World War 2 where we were engaged in active and overt warfare with a force that was seeking to expand outside its own borders by like a lot.

What do you think this is? This is a clear propaganda victory for Assad, a murderous authoritarian strong man that Gabbard took completely of her own initiative, in violation of her role in US international affairs. This is completely and utterly indefensible.

You know WHY the Justice Demcorats and Bernie are so popular? Because most people don't know much about them. With Bernie? "Oh, here's this guy talking about healthcare and jobs and how we need to do all this! AWESOME!" When people hear "Wait, he was buddies with Castro? The Sandinistas? He took a vacation in the USSR? He said WHAT about rape and young girls having sex?! He wants to tax us more? Wait, single payer? I like my plan! Why should I pay for X's kids to go to college?"

That approval will go down and only Bernie being a bench-warmer for progressive causes for decades has allowed him to skate by on this as he's had almost zero national prominence till recently and has been treated with total kid gloves by his own opponent who didn't want to go scorched earth. And it doesn't matter how much is factual. Just ask Hillary Clinton how true accusations have to be to sink a candidate

edited 22nd Mar '17 10:18:11 AM by Lightysnake

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#179009: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:16:59 AM

[up][up]Given that he has doubled down on sectarianism and literally would not be still in power if not for the Russians backing up his gutted military, the sustainability of Assad's regime is very questionable even if he won.

Well, at least that part of you that's OK with letting people who aren't pasty white Americans get butchered by their alleged leaders hasn't gone away.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
carbon-mantis Collector Of Fine Oddities from Trumpland Since: Mar, 2010 Relationship Status: Married to my murderer
Collector Of Fine Oddities
#179010: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:19:00 AM

[up][up] Held the damn meeting while Amnesty was reporting on the 15,000 killed in one of his death camps, no less.

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#179011: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:29:05 AM

By the way, can we all agree that Wikileaks isn't a pro-Trump group now that it's leaked stuff that makes agencies look bad while said agencies are under Trump's command? And yes, I'm just as happy about this more recent leak as I was about the DNC leaks.

Maybe if Wikileaks takes back saying that they didn't report anything about corruption in Russia because Russia had nothing to hide, (despite calling it a mafia state in 2010) didn't dox every female voter in Turkey just as "Sultan" Erdogan was looking to crack down on women's rights and getting closer to Russia, didn't do a Freudian slip and say that Obama was ordering an investigation of them when he ordered an investigation of Russian interference, didn't have its current head (who ran everyone decent out of the organization) having his own tv show on a dictator's propaganda network, etc., etc., etc., I'd have something good to say about Wikileaks.

As it is, the current version of the organization can go die in a fire. It did some good work when it was first set up, but as soon as he could Assange seized control, pushed out everyone with scruples or who didn't share his agenda, and is now buddy buddy with some of the biggest human rights abusers in the world.

Fuck Wikileaks.

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#179012: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:46:04 AM

I'm not going to bother not to be blunt: Gabbard went over, and read this quite closely: met with a dictator, stating his opposition were all terrorists.

But....but...but I just showed you that a lot of them - ugh, never mind. It doesn't look like facts will sway you.

Well, at least that part of you that's OK with letting people who aren't pasty white Americans get butchered by their alleged leaders hasn't gone away.

As opposed to supporting Hillary Clinton after she armed child soldiers? Or supporting Obama, who kept using drone strikes even after finding out that those kill people who weren't the intended targets (and where therefore probably innocent) 90% of the time?

By the way mods, wasn't it personal attacks like this that got me banned? Why isn't the person who says I'm "OK with letting people who aren't pasty white Americans get butchered" banned? Not that it matters to me at this point since this will be my last post on this thread, but I'm just curious.

I'm beginning to see that most people in this thread are Not So Different from Glen Beck or other far-right Trump supporters. It's all about playing for a team (team red in their case, team blue in yours) and you'll ignore proven facts that contradict the narrative you want to believe.

There isn't any point in us continuing to talk if we can't even agree on the facts, so I'll just leave it here.

To Fighteer or whoever lifted my suspension, I'm sorry. I thought I could handle this a lot better than I did last time, but I guess I can't. Is there a way you can ban me from just this thread and maybe the Islamaphobia thread but not the rest of the "On Topic Conversations" section? If not or if you think banning me from the entire section is what's best, I won't blame you. If you don't ban from the entire section, though, I promise never to post in this thread again.

edited 22nd Mar '17 10:48:35 AM by SeriesOfNumbers

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#179013: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:49:29 AM

I don't give a damn about Assad's opposition, what they are doesn't change the fact that he's killed more people than all of the other combatant groups combined, several times over. No mainstream politician, let alone a supposed progressive icon, should be allowed to meet with and offer tacit support to such a regime without getting heat for it.

edited 22nd Mar '17 10:59:24 AM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#179015: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:56:42 AM

[up] *sigh*, once again, IOKIYAR apparently.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#179016: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:56:54 AM

But....but...but I just showed you that a lot of them - ugh, never mind. It doesn't look like facts will sway you.

I will now be markedly more blunt:

Nobody disputes the presence of terrorists in Syria. This does not, in any way, shape or form, exuse Assad or give him more legitimacy and it sure as fuck does not excuse Gabbard going over to give him free good publicity after he has killed tens of thousands of civilians. Is that understand? Do I need more facts to sway me?

I'm markedly sick of this "Oh, you just support TEAM BLUE" thing, too.

edited 22nd Mar '17 11:00:44 AM by Lightysnake

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179017: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:57:11 AM

https://secure.politico.com/story/2017/03/obamacare-repeal-mark-meadows-freedom-caucus-236314

Trump, GOP leaders lack votes to pass Obamacare repeal

With less than 48 hours to go before a vote, the president and senior House Republicans are scrambling to corral wayward members.

It's... weird to me that the success or failure of the American Health Care Act is dependent on Republicans in either a state of self preservation or so ideological that the ACHA doesn't undo enough for their tastes

edited 22nd Mar '17 10:59:13 AM by sgamer82

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#179018: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:58:41 AM

President Trump sends a cease and desist order to a Webgame that involves him getting batted by Kitten Paws, made by a Teen learning how to code.

Such a petty piece of crap.

[up] I'm gonna laugh tomorrow if it fails in the House. I'll even record myself laughing and share it with everyone! (Not really, but I will laugh about this.) The Republican Party is so screwed!

edited 22nd Mar '17 11:00:14 AM by DingoWalley1

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#179019: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:58:47 AM

@carbon-mantis, Rational Insanity: That is before accounting for indiscriminate deployment of chemical weapons, in addition to deliberately targeting civilians with the same. [1]

edited 22nd Mar '17 11:01:34 AM by ViperMagnum357

Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#179020: Mar 22nd 2017 at 10:59:44 AM

Amusingly enough, Trump’s attempts to put the 'muscle' on Congress and sell Trump Care to the public are not going terribly well...

Notably, Mitch McConnell is not saying he has the votes.Only that he wants Trump Care done and far away from him: I haven’t seen any whip count suggesting that they’re even particularly close to 50 votes for the bill. If he keeps saying he wants to, ahem, 'conclude' it...he just wants it done to get working on Gorsuch or tax cuts.

If Mitch ever directly says he has the votes...get worried.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#179021: Mar 22nd 2017 at 11:01:56 AM

And let's remember that all this crap in Syria only started because Assad starting arresting and massacring peaceful protesters with completely legitimate demands.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#179022: Mar 22nd 2017 at 11:02:09 AM

[up]x6 It's the typical fallacy of Greater Evil vs Lesser Evil. Assad is the government in power, even if it is a dictatorship, and that gives him some legitimacy, thereby lowering his Perceived Evil score. His opposition are terrorists, and terrorists are almost universally bad, thereby increasing their Perceived Evil score. So by trying to point out that his opposition are, in fact, terrorists, psychologically you think, "Oh, Assad is a pretty bad dude, but at least he isn't a terrorist". Of course, logically speaking, Assad is still a terrible human being, as are the terrorists, but humans tend to have that one-or-the-other Black-and-White Morality view of things, when in this particular situation it's more Black-and-Black Morality.

edited 22nd Mar '17 11:02:35 AM by danime91

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#179023: Mar 22nd 2017 at 11:04:15 AM

I suppose in that sense you could argue they're terrorists by definition. But I'm interpreting the point being made by Rational, Lightysnake, and others is Assad's legitimacy is secondary, if not a non-factor given his other acts.

edited 22nd Mar '17 11:06:32 AM by sgamer82

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#179024: Mar 22nd 2017 at 11:05:02 AM

Here's the issue Sanders and his ilk have: yes, we get that the Overton Window is in a ridiculous position. Yes, we know that what we call the "left" side of our politics is really more of a center position. We are all aware of this. However, Democrats being effectively centrists is a feature of necessity.

Sanders and his supporters seem to think that all it takes is one hard kick and the Overton Window will fly across the spectrum and land on the hard left. They fall into the same fallacious philosophy as many Republicans: the insistence that it's easy, it's so easy to fix our political system, and the only reason we have any problems at all is because of crooked, greedy politicians twirling their sinister moustaches while lighting their cigars off your tax dollars.

What they don't understand is friction. The Overton Window is heavy and there's a lot of junk in its way. Kick it as hard as you want, it's just going to rock in place and return to its position. It has to be dragged slowly and diligently over a long period of time if it's ever going to move. There is no magic Fix America button sitting in the middle of Congress going unpressed.

More importantly, because we live in a democratic society, the Overton Window reflects not just the opinions and ideology of our leaders, but of the people who put them into power. Those people are every bit as resistant to change as our leaders are.

Which is what the process of dragging the Window is about. The system is broken in a lot of ways but if we start crying, "Throw it all out! Start from scratch!" then that's just going to freak people out. Nobody's going to vote for a movement that sounds like belligerent anarchists, even if they have a lot of good ideas. Hint hint: that's why Sanders got creamed in the primary.

So instead, what we do is we introduce ideas that are similar to the America that our voters know, but with a few tweaks here and there that make it better. A step leftwards here. Another step there. It's why Obama introduced the ACA instead of Universal Healthcare. It's why we argue about minimum wage instead of proposing five hundred bills a year for basic income.

Because we're dragging the Window to a point where those ideas will no longer seem like crazy Socialist talk from people who hate America and our way of life. If we want to make any progress at all, we have to play the game. You can't just step around it and then cry when no one votes for you.

edited 22nd Mar '17 11:05:35 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#179025: Mar 22nd 2017 at 11:05:37 AM

[up][up]Yeah, I'm just trying to reason out why Series and other such people might be missing out on the nuance of Gabbard meeting with him and why that makes her at the very least someone you wouldn't want to be voting for.

edited 22nd Mar '17 11:05:54 AM by danime91


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