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Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#178901: Mar 21st 2017 at 10:19:34 PM

My favorite: "The next time someone tries to tell you that Hillary Clinton was a weak candidate, remind them that it took the RNC, Wiki Leaks, the FBI, and Russia to narrowly bring her down in an election she won by nearly 3 million votes."

That list is actually incomplete, at a minimum to also took the Supreme Court, them striking down the Voting Rights Act seriously hurt Hillary due to what it did to the ability of minorities to vote. It's entirely possible that proper voting rights in Florida and North Carolina (former confederate states covered by the struck down enforcement rules) could have flipped the two states and thus the entire election.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#178902: Mar 21st 2017 at 10:26:47 PM

Also, she faced an opponent with a fanatically loyal base of support that took everything he said as gospel, no matter how absurd it was.

Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#178903: Mar 21st 2017 at 10:35:41 PM

Misread. nevermind.

edited 21st Mar '17 10:35:59 PM by Lanceleoghauni

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#178904: Mar 21st 2017 at 10:39:47 PM

So...basically, America can turn into a fascist state easily, you just need someone genuinely smart, competent, charismatic and most of all a Republican to do it.

Sound about right?

New Survey coming this weekend!
megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#178905: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:04:32 PM

has anyone ever noticed that most arguments (that are not just Ad Hominem attacks), Trump supporters have are things either directly taken from Fox, Brietbart, the man himself. Like how Trump supporters will rant about something completely detached from reality, but when asked for evidence get defensive, because there is none. They are seemingly spitting back what they hear on conservative media. I once asked a Trump supporter to support a claim they made, and they just started ranting about cool aid and conspiracy theories.

edited 21st Mar '17 11:13:30 PM by megaeliz

Bat178 Since: May, 2011
#178906: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:20:51 PM

[up] They are simple-minded creatures.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#178907: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:24:29 PM

If a Trump supporter started ranting at about kool-aid and conspiracy theories, I'd probably just parrot their rant back at them while changing as few words as possible, and then repeat the request that they back up their claims.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#178908: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:31:01 PM

This trend has been going back at least as far as Dubya's administration, with Karl Rove thinking "reality-based community" was an insult.

Hell, it arguably started with Reagan and Bush Sr. what with them coming up with bullshit economics aka Reaganomics and "no new taxes" and ignoring AIDS because it was supposedly a "gay" disease.

As for HRC being a "weak" candidate...what does that say about Sanders then, considering he lost to her?

edited 21st Mar '17 11:35:38 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#178909: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:35:10 PM

[up] I will never stop being bitter over the AIDS crisis. Those monsters fucking knew they could stop it, and didn't bother. Evil.

MorningStar1337 The Encounter that ended the Dogma from 🤔 Since: Nov, 2012
The Encounter that ended the Dogma
#178910: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:35:13 PM

Russia's Kremlins (or as I'd like to call them Gremlins) claims that the US intelligence committee is confused.

edited 21st Mar '17 11:36:09 PM by MorningStar1337

megaeliz Since: Mar, 2017
#178911: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:37:00 PM

But still, how many Trump supporters have you guys seen, that can produce actual evidence for their claims, or use logical fallacies such as Ad Hominem and false equivalency. Like that Fox news frame going around, that shows the tax brackets of several politicians. Since Donald trump has the highest Tax bracket, they go around trumpeting that other politicians are not paying their fair share. The problem is tax brackets are income based, and Donald Trump has more money than any of the other listed politicians, so of course he would have a higher tax bracket.

edited 21st Mar '17 11:37:52 PM by megaeliz

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#178912: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:53:37 PM

As for HRC being a "weak" candidate...what does that say about Sanders then, considering he lost to her.

Nothing considering a Democrat primary is different from a general election.

I mean anyone can vote in a general election at least theoretically.

In a Democrat primary, mostly only Democrats can vote and they have super delegates to make sure the result is the one the party wants which you don't even have on the Republican side.

The Democrat primary also gives a lot of influence to southern Democrats that they don't actually have in a general election.

So you could have all the North loving Candidate A and the whole South loving Candidate B. If the super-delegates were smart, they'd push for who the swing states were more in favor of and also who could pick up more people from outside the Democratic Party.

And where Independents were allowed to vote, it usually swung things in Bernie's favor.

Now Hillary did do better with centrist Republicans who jumped from Trump but I think Bernie could've carved out a bigger chunk of the WWC and energized the youth to vote which would've dwarfed whatever Hillary picked up in Republican moderates. Just my thoughts.

A lot of voters wanted change. Bernie was a change. Trump was a change. Hillary was seen as status quo.

edited 21st Mar '17 11:58:03 PM by MadSkillz

LeGarcon Blowout soon fellow Stalker from Skadovsk Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Gay for Big Boss
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
#178913: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:55:05 PM

Despite her and Bernie's policies being identical in the end.

Oh really when?
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#178914: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:56:07 PM

Hillary was status quo? Now you're just bullshitting. Straight up.

New Survey coming this weekend!
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#178915: Mar 21st 2017 at 11:58:00 PM

They don't want change, they want an illusion of change.

Continue writing our story of peace.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#178916: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:00:05 AM

What they want is to be able to call themselves "anti-establishment". How many of them can actually point to a real significant problem in their lives that is actually the fault of the "establishment"? For example, the coal industry jobs aren't being reduced due to environmental legislation — it's due to the fucking free market and automation.

Disgusted, but not surprised
RAlexa21th Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer from California (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I <3 love!
Zettai Ryouiki Enjoyer
#178917: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:01:09 AM

Dat Founding Fathers rebel spirits.

Continue writing our story of peace.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#178918: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:04:26 AM

See, here's the thing about what you just posted, Mad Skillz. When we give a big list of extenuated circumstances about why Hillary lost, you say, quite dismissively 'yeah, but she lost to Trump in the end'. But then when Bernie's loss to her is brought up just dismissively, suddenly you're the one giving context and digging up analysis.

You can't have it both ways. Either the wider context matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't, Trump > Hillary > Bernie. If it does, Trump beating Hillary isn't any inherently more meaningful than Hillary beating Bernie.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#178919: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:07:23 AM

Despite her and Bernie's policies being identical in the end.

Doesn't matter. Like I've said before, it doesn't matter what you put on your platform if you're not seen as trustworthy and you know Bernie may have pulled her to the left but their policies weren't identical. And their rhetoric was different . Hillary didn't really rail against companies, she didn't talk crap about free trade agreements, she wasn't offering universal education or the federal legalization of marijuana as far as I know. She wasn't a populist.

Hillary was status quo? Now you're just bullshitting. Straight up.

She was seen as it, sure. You know Bernie pulled Hillary to the left but it's up in the air whether she would've stayed there and she was trying her best to appeal to moderate Republicans rather than the Bernie crowd who she assumed would've voted for as a given. I find it more likely that she would've governed as another Clintonian Democrat a la Bill and Obama although because of the context of America at that time , I still think she would've been left of Obama who was left of Bill.

They don't want change, they want an illusion of change.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. Of course, they want change. Trump is change just in an awful direction that we don't agree with.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#178920: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:11:11 AM

[up]

She wasn't a populist.

Thing is, I considered this to be a point in her favor. I really don't like populism, as previous posts of mine can attest. While others like Cap have pointed out that populists aren't always bad...for every FDR and Sanders there is a Mao, a Hitler, a Castro, a Chávez, a Berlusconi, a Le Pen, a Trump.

edited 22nd Mar '17 12:12:52 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#178921: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:19:30 AM

she wasn't offering universal education or the federal legalization of marijuana as far as I know.

Wandering over to her site, I see a promise to make college debt-free and help with student loans. Nothing specifically about marijuana- closest is rhetoric about how addiction should be tried as a disease, not a moral failing.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#178922: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:20:16 AM

See, here's the thing about what you just posted, Mad Skillz. When we give a big list of extenuated circumstances about why Hillary lost, you say, quite dismissively 'yeah, but she lost to Trump in the end'. But then when Bernie's loss to her is brought up just dismissively, suddenly you're the one giving context and digging up analysis. You can't have it both ways. Either the wider context matters or it doesn't. If it doesn't, Trump > Hillary > Bernie. If it does, Trump beating Hillary isn't any inherently more meaningful than Hillary beating Bernie.

Okay point well-taken but here's the problem. The Democratic Party chose to run a candidate that was under investigation by the FBI while her team lead an incompetent campaign Those were self-inflicted wounds.

And this was while Trump was making every campaign mistake so it's hard for me to say she was a strong candidate in the general election.

And you know if you look at the data, you'll see that a lot of people that voted for Trump did so not because they were pro-Truml but because they were anti-Hillary.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/11/02/us-election-more-donald-trump-voters-say-they-are-anti-clinton-t/

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#178923: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:22:40 AM

Thing is, I considered this to be a point in her favor. I really don't like populism, as previous posts of mine can attest. While others like Cap have pointed out that populists aren't always bad...for every FDR and Sanders there is a Mao, a Hitler, a Castro, a Chávez, a Berlusconi, a Le Pen, a Trump.

It doesn't have to be good or bad, yeah. It's just an easy way to win votes.

So if I find a populist I like I'll vote for him/her.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#178924: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:22:44 AM

[up][up] The Democratic Party didn't choose to run HRC as their candidate for the presidency. The people who voted in the primaries did.

[up] That it is an easy to win votes is precisely why I find populists suspicious. That and the inherent anti-elitism which all too often is corrupted into anti-intellectualism.

edited 22nd Mar '17 12:33:47 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#178925: Mar 22nd 2017 at 12:27:27 AM

You're packing a lot of assumptions into the phrase 'under investigation by the FBI while her team leads an incompetent campaign'. Because in order of that statement to stand, you need to prove a) that her campaign was incompetently run, which is by itself an argument that you'll have an uphill time trying to win here, and b) that the DNC knew a bullshit nothingburger of a scandal would dog her for an entire year, helped along by the FBI breaking the law to remind people of it, which is downright illogical.


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