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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#177701: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:13:22 PM

Can you not remind us of how much we suck right now, thanks

i'm tired, my friend
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#177702: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:20:47 PM

[up][up]Of all things in 2016 alone?

But in continental news. State Deptartment, what's that? State Department was 'unaware' of Mexico visit
and Asylum seekers, border issues top agenda in Kelly meeting

The issue of asylum seekers illegally crossing the Canada-US border topped the agenda as Canadian officials met with the US Homeland Security chief.

Three issues in particular have been in the spotlight:

  • The increase in asylum seekers crossing illegally at the Canada-US border
  • Reports of Canadians facing a tough time crossing the border
  • The flow of trade between both countries

edited 11th Mar '17 5:28:48 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#177703: Mar 11th 2017 at 5:38:36 PM

@Madskillz: and yet, still not enough of them turned out to help either Sanders or Clinton, so my point about turnout still stands. That count goes by percentage of the people who actually voted, so the numbers are naturally not including those who didn't. If you don't come out to vote, you have no effect on who gets the office, and we still have a problem with people under thirty simply not voting for whatever reason. People in the same age bracket that voted for Obama didn't come out for this election.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#177704: Mar 11th 2017 at 6:15:17 PM

@math: It's also why people freaking out about the left in America are essentially enabling Trump in the same manner people on the left who refused to vote for Clinton out of some misguided principles helped get him elected: America's Overton window simply doesn't go far left enough to produce something radical to the point of being dangerous in the foreseeable future.

[up] And it's quite possible those voters are now lost forever to apathy and nilhism. More and more people in my age-group seem to be drifting towards the mindset that makes Putin's rule in Russia possible; the kind of fatalism and unshakable cynicism towards power that makes people simply give up on the political process altogether.

edited 11th Mar '17 6:22:00 PM by CaptainCapsase

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#177705: Mar 11th 2017 at 6:42:24 PM

Well, if it's any consolation, England and France had their own homegrown fascist movements leading up to WWII. They failed in part due to resistance from the populace. A lot of US citizens have been marching, and we can still donate.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#177706: Mar 11th 2017 at 6:51:21 PM

[up][up] So, is there a way to snap out their nihilism ?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#177708: Mar 11th 2017 at 7:42:41 PM

@Luigisan: the flipside of that is that the older people get, the more likely they are to vote. Probably because by then they realize that voting has consequences. And what can be done is already being done; Get Out the Vote and the like. Those probably need monetary support and volunteers to help people get registered and to the voting locations.

@Cap: there was an article linked earlier today talking about how the Gen Xers were now the people in power, which includes Paul Ryan. (And boy does it feel weird to think Gen Xers are that old now because at one point I thought of my sister as part of that group, but she might not be, or at least is on the tail end of it.) Which points more to the fact that cynicism aside, people do participate in the world more as they get older. What form that takes is anyone's guess right now. Hopefully not this tack to the far right that we're seeing now.

But in any event, let's not call a very broad group joined together only by their age as lost forever for any reason, yeah? This seems like your pessimism creeping in again; let's not fall into the pit of defeatism as regards getting folks to vote.

edited 11th Mar '17 7:44:00 PM by AceofSpades

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#177709: Mar 11th 2017 at 7:43:44 PM

@Aceof Spades

and yet, still not enough of them turned out to help either Sanders or Clinton, so my point about turnout still stands.

It never seems to occur to them that their low voter turnout and the relative irrelevance the Left has in the USA might be related.

edited 11th Mar '17 7:44:52 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#177710: Mar 11th 2017 at 7:46:27 PM

Actually I'm pretty sure it's it has occurred to them, or at least to the Democrats. It's people on the left who are usually calling for easier voting registration and the like, and doing drives to get people to the voting polls.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#177711: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:32:03 PM

@Aces: Yes, but you can absolutely find would be kleptocrats and strongmen among the millenials, and if what I fear might happen comes to pass, them and their followers will be the only people with the stomach for the political process.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#177713: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:41:10 PM

[up] Considering getting ahead in that sort of system very frequently involves having your rivals killed, and "losing" the game of thrones generally means death, both.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#177714: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:49:10 PM

Honestly the best way to snap millennials out of their self-righteous complacency is for the entire country to suffer under Trump. Sometimes what's need is the lash, and 2017 being possibly the disaster year for American liberalism might teach them a lesson.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#177715: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:05:07 PM

You talk about complacency but I see it diferent, what it worry me is perish the idea the other group can be see as rival that you may disagree instead of a political enemy that you must kick around and never give the time of the day, the last election have many people pretty much voting because "fuck the other guy" which could be a bad precedent over time.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#177716: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:10:06 PM

To be honestly, I wouldn't mind it if Republicans suffered terribly; partisanship is something I'm not at all concerned about; the kind of gentility that bipartisanship requires means a lot of important issues go unaddressed. Though, after four years of Trump, pretty much every vulnerable group is going to have a personal story about how this administration fucked them, which can be translated into big Dem gains.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#177717: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:14:28 PM

That's assuming cognitive dissonance doesn't take hold in a big way.

i'm tired, my friend
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#177718: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:14:31 PM

But, goddamn, the Dem President is gonna spend four years literally undoing all of his bullshit, and then start us on a path of progress...

Unless the country grows impatient and then elects another fucking Republican to start the process all over again.

New Survey coming this weekend!
JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#177719: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:17:04 PM

Part of the problem is climate change. We're already down to the wire, and Trump, Pruitt and the Republican party are completely opposed to taking action, even though there's billions to be made.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#177720: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:20:41 PM

Ah, Republicans. Not content to be merely evil, they have to be Stupid Evil.

I mean, I guess they are mostly old fucks who won't be alive to see the consequences of their inaction. Fuck you, I got mine; one a species wide level.

edited 11th Mar '17 9:21:25 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#177721: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:21:34 PM

@Gilphon

Claiming 'Hillary lost to Trump' as an argument in favour of Sanders rings awfully hollow to me. Because Sanders lost to Hillary.

No kidding. But this part of the danger of messianic thinking. You start from the premise that your guy has the magic power to fix everything, and that if only he were "given a chance" he would. The diehard Sanders fanboys have been playing this card since it became apparent he was going to lose the primaries.

This is in a large part why they have to push the "corruption in the Democratic Party" narrative. Because if Sanders lost fairly, or even close to fairly, then their wishful belief that he would have become president if he won the primary becomes is exposed as a delusion. There has to be something inherently and seriously unfair in the Democratic primary process to deny Sanders the nomination, so that the Unicorn Brigaders can go on insisting he'd have won the actual election. Never mind that the main election is crooked, in terms of voter suppression, the Electoral College, and this time around, the Russians.

If you've ever wondered why the diehards come off as madder at Clinton than at Trump, it's because they have to. The DNC has to have done more vote rigging than the Republicans. Otherwise their narrative—that Sanders was denied the nomination unfairly and would have totes won the election—is exposed as false.

@Mad Skillz

Gonna repeat this again. Bernie won more of the youth vote than Hillary and Trump combined. That is significant.

No it isn't. If two guys in a room have tattoos and the other ninety-eight do not, and I get both those guys to vote for me, I have won the tattoo vote. Unfortunately said vote constitutes two percent of the people in the room and is therefore statistically insignificant.

The youth vote is a statistical irrelevancy because not enough of them turn out to vote. Most of them, once again, couldn't be arsed to turn out for Sanders in the primaries. It doesn't matter how well he polled amongst young people, they couldn't or wouldn't get off their asses to actually go and make him the nominee.

The youth you're claiming are so significant treated Sanders rallies like parties. Places to go to meet people and hit on women by demonstrating their progressive credentials. When it came time to actually go and vote they didn't do it.

Decisions are made by those who show up. "The youth vote" didn't show up. They never do. And in doing so have damned themselves to electoral irrelevance.

Carter was a horrid candidate. I'm sorry that a branch of the Democrat Party wanted a better president that's the one they got. If Ted had beat Carter, we'd have been happier for it and honestly Carter was going to lose to Reagan either way. Carter's approval ratings were in the gutter.

More Carter bashing from someone who has previously demonstrated that they don't know anything about the Carter presidency. As for wanting a better candidate...you're kidding right? Ted Kennedy was a great Senator, sure, but when asked why he was primarying Carter he could not give an answer. He could not explain why he was doing what he was doing. Not usually a good sign from the candidate.

Ted Kennedy did not want to be president. Can't say I blame him after what happened to the rest of his family. And everything about his attempt to primary Carter speaks of a man who did not want to win. He was pushed into doing it by Unicorn Brigaders who were attracted to the name "Kennedy" and believed, like they always do, that if they could just get the messiah into the race, everything would be perfect. He was pressured to run, and ran accordingly. In the end he couldn't actually contest Carter's position—but he managed to make the Democrats look like raging incompetents and Reagan appear a genius by comparison.

But sure. Blame Carter. Blame the victim, rather than examining the utter disaster that was Kennedy's run and the motivations behind it.

See this is the type of behavior that makes me wish the Democratic Party breaks in two some days. When you have one branch of the party calling the other side the unicorn brigade and the hard left/alt-left and saying they don't deserve a voice, it makes it hard to actually want to work with them.

That's nice. When you have a group of people who consistently rally around a figure and declare him to be the messiah apropos of nothing, then pitch a hissy fit and take their marbles home when things don't work out how they wanted, working with them becomes impossible to start with.

When these people stop the hunt for The Great Progressive Messiah (TM) and actually try to become part of the process, they will be worth working with.

Did the DNC try to help Hillary so she could beat Sanders? Yes or no?

I. Don't. Care.

Why can't you? Hillary lost to Trump. They failed.

And Sanders would have lost even worse. Seriously, Sanders' reaction when he thought Trump wanted to throw him a bone and debate him? The implosion that resulted from it, as Sanders proceeded to self-immolate by pretending to a relevance he no longer had, and essentially begging the Republican front runner to salvage his campaign? That's what a Sanders v Trump campaign would have looked like.

Also where's the evidence that it was non-Democrats trying to take over the Democratic Party?

...You're joking right? Sanders is not a Democrat. His supporters constantly boast about his "strength with independents". He lost the primary in large part because his fanboys forgot to change their registration across numerous states.

I don't think Bernie knew he was going to run for president decades ago.

He knew he wanted influence over the Democratic Party. Hint—you get that by joining it. Sanders has had years to join up. He chose not to.

He kinda is. He's an Independent and he's to the left of most Democrats. Establishment might as well be codeword for neoliberal.

Bullshit. He's been in politics for thirty years or more. He's got all the skeletons in his closet that one can expect of someone with that track record.

Not gonna bother responding to the "neoliberal" crap because as demonstrated previously, you use that as a slur rather than in any meaningful political sense.

And I haven't seen him complain. He jumped to support Hillary after he lost.

After spending months whining about how it was rigged, man, and getting his fanboys stirred up against the DNC. I'm glad he saw the light and tried to fix things at the last moment, but his net impact on the party was awful.

We did. There just weren't enough of us.

And you've refuted yourself. Not enough of you got off your asses and voted. So you lost. Because that's how elections work.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#177722: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:27:08 PM

@Zephyr: That's only going to make things worse. Go ahead and ask one of the Russian tropers over in their thread why they put up with all the shit their government does and the gist of the response is something along the lines of "at least it's not as bad as it was in the 90s."

[up] Sanders had a better shot than Clinton or any democrat simply by virtue of being distant from the incumbent party what turned out to be a change election. Now if he'd won, it'd be the same circular firing squad that labor went into after Corbyn became the party leader followed by a cruhsing midterm loss, but Clinton's presidency would be just one impeachment attempt after another and annual government shutdowns followed by an equally devastating loss in the midterms.

Clinton was not a good choice by any stretch of the imagination; whatever her qualifications. Neither was Sanders, or any sitting democratic politician I can think of. The party is in a sorry state when a 74 year old socialist and part of the same foreign policy blob that marched us into a Forever War in the middle east is what's being offered.

edited 11th Mar '17 9:35:27 PM by CaptainCapsase

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#177723: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:27:48 PM

Pruitt and the Republican party are completely opposed to taking action, even though there's billions to be made.

This is the part that gets me. They're literally leaving hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars on the table either out of spite, or just because they really are true believers.

New Survey coming this weekend!
BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
#177724: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:30:59 PM

"Fuck you, got mine" is really their ethos underneath all the labels. And they're waging a culture war to widen their power and influence.

Do not obey in advance.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#177725: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:32:37 PM

Well, if what we fear does come to pass, and any of these guys are still alive somehow...well, I expect some form of apology.

Or a trial. That might very from person to person.

Oh God! Natural light!

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