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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Advarielle Homicidal Editor Since: Aug, 2016
Homicidal Editor
#177651: Mar 11th 2017 at 6:55:27 AM

[up](5X) Alt-center is a thing now? You can't just add alt- prefix to anything to make it a worse version of something and I'm pretty sure alt-left don't exist yet (and hopefully never actually become a thing). Seriously, politics make words lost all meanings.

Only an experienced editor who has a name possesses the ability to truly understand my work - What 90% of writers I'm in charge of said.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#177652: Mar 11th 2017 at 7:13:38 AM

Sure ya can. Alt-pizza is like regular pizza but with broccoli on it. Alt-orphans are maliciously self-made. Alt-kittens breathe lava. All of this right here? Alt-language, yo.

This has been your regularly scheduled Alt Facts.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#177653: Mar 11th 2017 at 7:16:40 AM

Many of Sanders' ideas have very solid ideological foundations. The problem is that he failed to communicate a reasonable plan to implement them, making them "cool story, bro" as well as political distractions. I initially liked him but got turned off when I heard his exact stump speech for the three-hundredth time without any details. I also found his insistence that delivering economic equality would also drive social equality to be a bit unconvincing.

Again...

  • Single-payer healthcare: This is indeed the place we should be going, but Obamacare barely squeaked through Congress on reconciliation; there is literally zero chance of passing single-payer any time soon. Clinton was being realistic in proposing a "public option" for health insurance, which could have evolved into single-payer over time.
  • Higher minimum wage: Frankly, we should go beyond $15/hour and index the minimum wage to a national living wage. That said, it is a widely held position among progressives that this should be done in some form, so we're not having any kind of argument about it.
  • Free college tuition: There are serious problems with this proposal, not the least of which being tuition inflation as demand exceeds supply and schools try to gouge the government. We also, critically, need to dismantle the college sports system so that educational institutions are not mechanisms to funnel money into football programs. Furthermore, I did not see a plan in Sanders' platform to address the critical problems with our elementary and high school systems, particularly in poor areas. It does little good for Joe and Jane Urban to get free college if they can't pass an entrance exam.
  • Reinstate Glass-Steagall: This stump position had dubious real value, as was pointed out by many pundits. Dodd-Frank is (or was, if Congress succeeds in tearing it down) an excellent tool to rein in the excesses of the finance system, as seen in how vocally they oppose it. We need more measures, of course. A financial transaction tax is a really good idea.
  • Break up the big banks: This crowd-pleaser is another idea that has dubious actual economic value. There are many problems with large financial institutions, but a sledgehammer approach that smacks of populist revenge fic isn't necessarily the best way to solve them.

There are others, and I've written this same post before.

As for the infighting over tactics and who blamed who for what, that's natural in a divided body politic, but we should remember first of all that we are progressives who oppose the Republicans' desire to destroy the ideas of factual knowledge, social justice, and equality. Yes, the DNC did oppose Sanders' campaign. Yes, Clinton's campaign was mismanaged in some critical ways. Yes, Sanders did tacitly support "Bernie Bros" who were making racist attacks against Clinton's demographics. Yes, we need to get our collective shit together as Democrats and figure out how to win local elections so that there's a solid base to govern from. So let's solve problems, not fight over who's responsible.

edited 11th Mar '17 8:03:22 AM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#177655: Mar 11th 2017 at 7:46:47 AM

[up][up][tup][awesome]

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#177656: Mar 11th 2017 at 7:55:06 AM

Texas has been court-ordered to redraw it's Political Districts due to Racial Gerrymandering. It can still go to the Supreme Court to appeal the decision, however.

FFShinra Since: Jan, 2001
#177657: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:07:26 AM

So it seems the Chinless Wonder is calling out Trump for not fighting Daesh. Which must hurt, given how much of an apologist Trump was for the evil opthamologist....

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#177658: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:07:28 AM

Excellent post but this

A financial transaction tax is a really good idea.

This just isn't the case. A number of nations, particularly Sweden have tried this and all have pretty much objective failures, if not catastrophic depending on your perspective.

Every single time it's been implemented it always generates less revenue. ALWAYS. Mainly To prevent capital flight from destroying their economy, governments built in a number of exceptions and loopholes to the law, making it random bureacracy that has no force. A good example of this is UK's transition tax, where I believe only 30% of whatever is covered under the financial translation tax is actually taxed and there are low rates for it anyway (i'll need to dig the source on this, I just remember reading bout it)

And keep in mind this was back in the 80s, when virtual trading wasn't a thing yet. The moment a FTT is passed in America on Wall Street, all trading would go towards either London, or East Asia, practically over night.

edited 11th Mar '17 8:07:43 AM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#177659: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:11:56 AM

[up][up]Who's the chinless wonder?

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#177660: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:18:42 AM

[up]Bashar Al-Assad, still President of Syria (for the foreseeable future at least).

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#177661: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:25:29 AM

Financial transaction taxes only work on a global scale. Classic case of a prisoner's dilemma.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#177662: Mar 11th 2017 at 8:45:57 AM

And what exactly does your own post history say?
Feel free to go through my post history, but I'm not sure what you think you will find there (defending one of the most progressive politicians in the US is not a crime, I think). In any case, feel free to send me a PM if you have anything to discuss, because this is getting personal.

Show me one person here talking about the alt-left as if it was a thing.
I'm pretty sure I've seen people here posting pieces that try to associate Sanders with all lunatics on the left (e.g. Jill Stein) and saying that this is what his 'movement' is about - they alternate between calling them 'far left' and 'alt-left'. I'm not saying that the 'alt-center' is a real thing, and neither did the piece I linked to: the point it wanted to make is that you could as easily discredit the center by associating them with some idiots on the internet as has been repeatedly done with the left (see e.g. BernieBros).

Haven't seen that, what I've seen is attacking some particular Sanders followers who are racist or sexist, see for example Samuel "rein women in" Ronan, who was minor a candidate for DNC chair.

And almost all Sanders followers supported Keith Ellison instead of Sam Ronan, so this ties in with the above point I tried to make.

Because historically in the US economically progressive measures have been implemented only at if they excluded minorities. Ideally most serious "social justice" policies should include a lot of "economic justice" measures.

But no-one says that they should right now, this is what I mean with the strawmanning.

@Fighteer: These are all fair criticisms (although I don't agree with all of them), and I'm not saying that people shouldn't point out flaws in his plans when they see them. But most posts I've seen about Sanders resort in people acting (either deliberately or indeliberately) like the worst people they can find on the net are somehow representative of what his 'movement' is about. Case in point: this comment of yours

Yes, Sanders did tacitly support "Bernie Bros" who were making racist attacks against Clinton's demographics.
which I feel was really unnecessary, and I don't think there's any base in reality for this.

And obviously, I think the Republican Party is far worse than the Democratic Party, and I'd rather see, for example, Joe Manchin, in the White House than Donald Trump. But this doesn't mean that I think people should accept whatever awful things the former does either. I'd much prefer that the US move to the direction that my country has been in for years (even politicians on the right here would say you're nuts, for example, when you attack the concept of public healthcare), and I feel that there are several elements in the Democratic Party who want to prevent this (see e.g. the DNC chair election, of which several Democrats afterwards said that they didn't vote for Ellison because this would move the party 'too far to the left'), and I think these people should be called out for this as well - and that this is definitely not the same as helping Trump.

edited 11th Mar '17 8:47:12 AM by Perian

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#177663: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:08:14 AM

So with Texas having to redraw maps that's, what, three or four states this has happened to? I know there is Wisconsin, North Carolina and, I think, Virginia? I think the last one is still in progress?

edited 11th Mar '17 9:11:46 AM by sgamer82

TerminusEst from the Land of Winter and Stars Since: Feb, 2010
#177664: Mar 11th 2017 at 9:15:17 AM

Former Trump aide Flynn says lobbying may have helped Turkey

President Donald Trump's former national security adviser, Michael Flynn, who was fired from his prominent White House job last month, has registered with the Justice Department as a foreign agent for $530,000 worth of lobbying work before Election Day that may have aided the Turkish government.

Si Vis Pacem, Para Perkele
HextarVigar That guy from The Big House Since: Feb, 2015
That guy
#177665: Mar 11th 2017 at 10:02:19 AM

Gobbled him up, did they?

WHOOPWHOOP!

Your momma's so dumb she thinks oral sex means talking dirty.
TheWanted Since: Oct, 2013
#177666: Mar 11th 2017 at 10:31:25 AM

Meanwhile, in other news...

He will not divide us live stream tried again for the third time with just a flag against the sky with the slogan. It was found in less than 48 hours and replaced with a MAGA hat and pepe the frog t-shirt.

Shia, you might want to seriously just throw in the towel dude.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#177667: Mar 11th 2017 at 10:32:10 AM

@Perian

I find it interesting that you keep making assertions about how most of us feel about Sanders, yet provide no links to back yourself up. No one has claimed that Sanders is himself representative of the insane Internet left, simply that the insane Internet left exists and that their love of Sanders (or their fictionalized, idealized version of him) often blots out their reason.

And don't try to pretend the hard left is just a few guys on the Internet. They're the morons who helped put Reagan in power when they insisted on having Ted Kennedy primary Carter, despite the fact that Kennedy couldn't even properly articulate why he was running. Every few elections these people show up, pick their messiah, and then storm out of the electoral process should said messiah not get in. They exist and they're a long running problem.

Feel free to go through my post history, but I'm not sure what you think you will find there (defending one of the most progressive politicians in the US is not a crime, I think).

He's referencing the fact that you don't seem to do anything else. You only seem to show up when someone says something less than flattering about Sanders. Which I mean, you're allowed to do certainly, but it makes it harder to take your comments seriously.

which I feel was really unnecessary, and I don't think there's any base in reality for this.

Of course, but in your entire post history I can't think of a point at which you've ever allowed that a criticism of Sanders would be warranted. So with that in mind, here's my question to you—what would you consider to be a legitimate criticism of Sanders?

edited 11th Mar '17 10:53:01 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

PhysicalStamina i'm tired, my friend (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Coming soon to theaters
i'm tired, my friend
#177668: Mar 11th 2017 at 10:36:46 AM

I find it interesting that you keep making assertions about how most of us feel about Sanders, yet provide no links to back yourself up. No one has claimed that Sanders is himself representative of the insane Internet left, simply that the insane Internet left exists and that their love of Sanders (or their fictionalized, idealized version of him)

You never finished that paragraph but yeah pretty much this. I think Sanders is a cool guy myself, but his damn fan club drives me up a wall.

i'm tired, my friend
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#177669: Mar 11th 2017 at 10:40:31 AM

Going back a bit and responding to some posts from yesterday...

So what's up with Trump using an unsecured phone? Is this dangerous?
This is incredibly dangerous. People who responded to this when it was first posted were saying things like everything ever done with that phone may have been intercepted. It's much worse than that. Once a phone is compromised, you can basically make it do whatever you want — including recording and transmitting things without asking for permission or notifying the user. And we're talking about a cell phone, which is a literal recording device designed to be carried with you wherever you go.

By using an unsecure phone, Trump has basically bugged himself. Anything that the phone's microphone can hear, camera can see, or antennas can pick up can (and very likely are) being recorded and transmitting to foreign intelligence agencies.

That phone is a fucking security nightmare.

Ive never understood why there is so much Sanders hate around here. He didnt lose the election.
Most people here don't have a problem with Sanders personally so much as his fanbase who insist that he's the one and only true savior of the American Left. Fighteer gave a pretty good rundown of Sanders' problems and why there are a lot of legitimate reasons to prefer Clinton as a candidate and her positions as the Democratic Party line.

The only thing I'd add to Fighteer's post is that Bernie also embraced the "outsider" narrative despite the fact that he's been in Congress for 30 years. I dislike that sort of thing from anyone, because painting yourself as an outsider who will come in and fix everything that those damn insiders have broken makes it extremely difficult to govern effectively if you do manage to get into office, because your supporters expect you to burn down the system and start fresh, and burning down the system is a terrible way to govern, so you either have to betray your base (by working with all those evilbadwrong "insiders") or be really ineffective at your job (by refusing to work with all those evilbadwrong insiders).

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#177670: Mar 11th 2017 at 10:54:13 AM

[up][up]I went back and finished the paragraph. Thanks for catching that.

I think Sanders is a cool guy myself, but his damn fan club drives me up a wall.

It's their hypocrisy that always gets to me. Railing about Clinton's "superpredators" comment and trying to make it all about race, while ignoring or rationalizing away Sanders' equally problematic "socoipaths" comment. They were talking about the same people, guys, and both comments are pretty tonedeaf in retrospect.

Or after Sanders said Clinton won "the Confederacy", a horrid gaffe that upset a lot of African-Americans. Would the Sanders fans even admit it was a gaffe? Nope. For the most part they started lecturing African-Americans and their allies about how there was nothing racist or tonedeaf about it.

The "Sanders can do no wrong" narrative is really, really irritating.

edited 11th Mar '17 10:58:26 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#177671: Mar 11th 2017 at 10:58:19 AM

[up][up][up]Yup, that's pretty much my view of the situation too.

I'm pretty sure I've seen people here posting pieces that try to associate Sanders with all lunatics on the left (e.g. Jill Stein) and saying that this is what his 'movement' is about.

Please post a link to that.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#177672: Mar 11th 2017 at 11:02:10 AM

I mean, there is some overlap between Sanders' base and the Greens; some of them, according to their own words, only got involved with the Dems because of Sanders. They aren't a majority by any means of course.

Sanders himself isn't nearly pie in the sky to overlap with Stein and co, and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't put up with anti-vaxx or anarchist BS.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#177673: Mar 11th 2017 at 11:06:53 AM

Let's not start pretending the Sanders is "cool" because his fanbase is full of morons and literal nutcases and isolate him from any responsibility.

He got his fame through largely suburban white college kids who used social media to propel him into the spotlight, and unlike Obama, he didn't have the self-awareness enough to control his ego, nor the intelligence and policy background to make his fantasy ideas remotely work.

New Survey coming this weekend!
Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#177674: Mar 11th 2017 at 11:36:07 AM

I find it interesting that you keep making assertions about how most of us feel about Sanders, yet provide no links to back yourself up.

I don't feel it's very polite to single out particular users. I'm just pointing out that whenever Sanders is mentioned, people set up strawmen like that his campaign has been fuelled by sexism, that he wants to throw minorities under the bus etc. This is exactly what happened a couple of pages ago. And don't act like 'guilt by association' isn't a thing. Otherwise, what's the point in continuously complaining about a tiny group? Most people who voted for Sanders deeply care about minorities and voted for Clinton in the general election. You like Clinton - I think you would be annoyed as well if these people were continuously brought up in any discussion relating to her.

He's referencing the fact that you don't seem to do anything else. You only seem to show up when someone says something less than flattering about Sanders. Which I mean, you're allowed to do certainly, but it makes it harder to take your comments seriously.
I agree 90% of the time with what people say here, so I don't think there is any point to discuss these things. I've also had some very productive discussions with people who disagree with me (for example, I really appreciate Fighteer's thorough post on the previous page), if that answers your question.

Of course, but in your entire post history I can't think of a point at which you've ever allowed that a criticism of Sanders would be warranted. So with that in mind, here's my question to you—what would you consider to be a legitimate criticism of Sanders?

Except that I did just this in the post you were referencing:

and I'm not saying that people shouldn't point out flaws in his plans when they see them.
I agree that many of his plans are difficult too accomplish in the current legislative environment. I don't think he's a very charismatic speaker, and I also think he repeats the same talking points too much. He's too idealistic to think that having progressive positions is an advantage to get elected. Just like the "it's racism that got Trump elected" people, his "it's the economy that got Trump elected" is too simple a characterization of people's voting behaviors. He is definitely guilty of using buzz-words like 'the establishment' without always sufficiently explaining what he means by them. I respect that there are people who have severe ideologic disagreements with him. These are all valid criticisms. 'His campaign was fuelled by the anger of white males' or 'he only cares about white people, and is happy to throw minorities under the bus' (and yes, I know I'm exaggerating somewhat) is not one of them.

See e.g.., the hyperbole in the above post 'suburban white college kids', ignoring that he's also extremely well liked by minorities, 'fantasy ideas' etc.

EDIT: Also, if Warren, or Ellison, or any other progressive politician, was repeatedly attacked in this forum, I would make the exact same post. I've seen people defend Clinton and Obama as vigorously as I did with Sanders. So these 'Sanders fan club' comments are rather patronizing.

edited 11th Mar '17 12:05:17 PM by Perian

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#177675: Mar 11th 2017 at 12:56:19 PM

@Ifwanderer I would recommend just looking at Ambar'e post for starters who has frequently called them the hard left, insane left and the alt left.

He got his fame through largely suburban white college kids who used social media to propel him into the spotlight, and unlike Obama, he didn't have the self-awareness enough to control his ego, nor the intelligence and policy background to make his fantasy ideas remotely work.

Yeah, no, I've been over this already. Bernie was popular with the young in general not just young white guys.

Young minorities voted for Bernie more than they did for Hillary.

So hearing people accuse him of being the white guy's candidate is pretty insulting and doesn't match the data

edited 11th Mar '17 12:57:15 PM by MadSkillz


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