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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#177451: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:00:39 PM

[up] [up][up][up]If a region's reasoning for self-determination is 'we want to continue treating human beings as cattle' I'd feel pretty darn justified in slapping their hand and saying 'no.'

Especially if they also kick in the door and try to shoot me in the face because they know I might try and slap their hand off the slavery button.

Fuck the Confederates.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:02:21 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#177452: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:10:22 PM

[up]With respect, this seems a little too convenient by half. Depending on a given territory's initial motives for breaking away, that provides a built-in, no-fault excuse for suppressing independence in perpetuity ... whatever turns subsequent history takes.

[down]The South?

edited 9th Mar '17 5:16:14 PM by Jhimmibhob

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#177453: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:13:23 PM

Again, you are essentially defending a morally bankrupt institution founded on a morally bankrupt cornerstone. You're not exactly going to win any sympathy with that.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#177454: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:13:27 PM

“The Medicaid population, which is [on] a free credit card as a group, do probably the least preventive medicine and taking care of themselves and eating healthy and exercising. And I’m not judging; I’m just saying socially that’s where they are,” he told STAT, a website focused on health-care coverage. “So there’s a group of people that even with unlimited access to health care are only going to use the emergency room when their arm is chopped off or when their pneumonia is so bad they get brought [to] the ER.”
Huh. {Expletive Redacted]!

And self-determination, like freedom, has a meaning that can be abused. note  It's limits aren't obvious, but anyone claiming "self-determination" because the government is "repressing" their right to own other humans and dominate a rigid oligarchy insults the whole concept of self-determination. Invoking self-determination for such an unworthy cause—that incidentally denies another cardinal human right—cheapens the concept just that much more.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:16:34 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#177455: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:14:12 PM

Hey, if the former Confederate states decided to rebel on the pretense of, say, socialised healthcare, redistribution of wealth or improved civil rights, I could see an argument for secession.

As it is it's almost always wanky Lost Cause or States' Rights arguments that are all dogwhistle language for slavery or not being allowed to treat minorities like dirt.

Again, fuck 'em.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#177456: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:18:08 PM

The South?

To be more specific, the Confederacy.

It is understandable to feel that you do not share much in terms of fellowship with other people in the country you are supposed to live in. In theory this might provide part of an understandable reason for emancipation, among other reasons.

But the American Civil War went a bit deeper than just that, no?

If I understand your argument, you are essentially postulating that self-determination is something that should be respected even if one disagrees with the reasoning given behind it. I on the other hand think that the reasons for that self-determination are important to evaluate in order to decide whether it should be something you should support or not.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:22:45 PM by Draghinazzo

TheWanderer Student of Story from Somewhere in New England (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
Student of Story
#177457: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:19:14 PM

Trump shennaningans:

Trump administration looking to make it harder for children to qualify as unaccompanied minors.

Long story short, children who came to the border either unaccompanied or not accompanied by a parent or legal guardian got special protections and rights under the law. Often these children have family living in the States already, legally or illegally. DHS wants to strip the protections of the vast majority of these children, on the basis of "They're not really unaccompanied if they have family here already" and make it easier to deport the kids, their families, or charge the families with human trafficking.

Fabiola went before an immigration judge in black, glittery shoes and a purple sweater with a pink peace sign on it. She’s five years old.

She had a federal prosecutor and an interpreter but no lawyer. She was at the court for hours, and every so often Fabiola would look up at the adults the room, raise her finger and warn them: “I don’t want anyone in here to give me a shot,” she would say in Spanish.

Fabiola thought she was at the doctor's office. Adults at the court assured her that they don’t give shots there, but Fabiola was skeptical.

Fabiola fled Guatemala without a parent or legal guardian. She walked for months with a friend of her grandmother's. Under rules set by former President Barack Obama, Fabiola is considered an “unaccompanied minor" because she made the journey without a parent or legal guardian. With that classification comes special protections mandated by Congress.

According to proposals from President Donald Trump, Fabiola wouldn't be considered unaccompanied because she was reunited with her mother who lives in New York.

Fabiola was apprehended at the border about two months ago. She was separated from her grandmother's friend, held in Customs and Border Protection detention for three days, then sent to a shelter in Chicago. Twenty days later, she was released to her mother.

This is the standard process for unaccompanied children. If their parents are living in the U.S., they can step forward and claim their kids. The process can take months.

“It’s the most horrible experience there is,” Fabiola’s mother said. “Besides the anguish of her journey here ... I didn’t know where she was, if she was okay, if they were treated her well.”

According to a February 17, 2017 memo from Department of Homeland Security Secretary John Kelly, “approximately 60 percent of minors initially determined to be ‘unaccompanied alien children’ are placed in the care of one or more parents illegally residing in the United States."

Kelly called it an abuse, and has asked agencies to develop a system to reclassify those children.

“If a child does have a parent somewhere in the U.S. Secretary Kelly’s memo seems to imply the child should be treated same as an adult,” said Lenni Benson who runs The Safe Passage Project.

Benson says that means kids can be deported the day they arrive at the border, and without any hearing.

And there’s another big change outlined in Trump's plans: if a parent living in the U.S. illegally comes forward to claim their children, like Fabiola’s mom, the memo says federal agents may place the parents into removal proceedings or refer them for criminal prosecution because they would be seen as facilitating "the smuggling or trafficking of alien children into the United States."

Because fuck human decency.

Michael Flynn registers as a foreign agent of Turkey, admits he was being paid to try to send exiled Turkish cleric back to Turkey

Former National Security Adviser Mike Flynn has registered with the Justice Department as a foreign agent for his lobbying work linked to the Turkish government, according to paperwork filed Tuesday. Just weeks after Flynn was ousted from the Trump administration, the early Trump supporter and campaign adviser registered with the Justice Department’s Foreign Agent Registration Unit for lobbying that his firm—Flynn Intel Group Inc.—did on behalf of Inovo BV, a Dutch consulting company owned by a Turkish businessman with ties to Turkey President Recep Tayyip Erdogan.

Flynn’s firm took on the Inovo job late in the campaign, in late August, and was paid $530,000 for consulting work on behalf of the company during the final stretch of the presidential campaign. “The new documents show Inovo wrote six-figure checks to Flynn's firm in September and October as he served as a top national security aide on Trump's campaign,” USA Today reports. “The final payment of $145,000 came on Nov. 14, 2016, just days after Trump captured the presidency.”

Here’s more on the filing from USA Today:

As part of its contract with Inovo, the Flynn Intel Group hired researchers to examine Fethullah Gulen, a reclusive Islamic cleric who lives in exile in rural Pennsylvania. Erdogan has blamed Gulen's opposition group for an attempted 2016 coup and has sought his extradition. On Election Day, The Hill newspaper published a Flynn op-ed that called Gulen "radical cleric" and said the U.S. government should "not provide him a safe haven."

In its filings with the Justice Department, Flynn's firm said the op-ed was not published at the request of Inovo or the Turkish government but said Inovo did review a draft before Flynn submitted it.

Flynn also disclosed meeting with the Turkish businessman, Ekim Alptekin, along with Turkey's ministers of foreign affairs and energy in New York City in mid-September, according to the Associated Press.

A foreign agent working for the Trump campaign during the election, and becoming part of his administration afterward. What are the odds?

Basically every large medical association is turning out to tell Republicans that their health care plan sucks

| Wandering, but not lost. | If people bring so much courage to this world...◊ |
Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#177458: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:23:26 PM

[up][up]It certainly did go deeper than that, a lot. I've no sympathy for most of the reasons the Confederacy started the war, and given the realities of slavery, it's a mercy—a moral imperative—that the war turned out as it did. But that doesn't mean one has to like the side that won, either. And it doesn't mean one has to assume a shit-eating grin and be eternally content under their rule.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:25:11 PM by Jhimmibhob

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177459: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:26:03 PM

[up][up]Truly, Flynning has taken on a whole new meaning...

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177460: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:27:54 PM

So... 'the side that lost were fighting for horrible reasons, and it's a good thing that they lost, but I still prefer them to the side that won', is what you're saying, then?

Because that doesn't strikes me as a terribly internally consistent point of view.

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#177461: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:30:47 PM

I've no sympathy for most of the reasons the Confederacy started the war...

At least you admit it, for which you gain some measure of credibility. This whole "War of Northern Aggression" bullshit, trying to blame everything on the Damn Yankees, is really getting tiresome.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:31:33 PM by pwiegle

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#177462: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:40:00 PM

[up][up] Actually, I think they were arguing that the North was the lesser of two evils.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:40:10 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#177463: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:52:05 PM

Why is the south some unique entity that's separate from the rest of the US? It's not like they have no say in US affairs. They get to same representation as everyone else.

kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177464: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:55:22 PM

[up]

They get the same representation as everyone else.

Exactly. They don't want the same representation as everyone else; they want to have representation over everybody else, because they only believe in The Land of the Free(TM) when it isn't The Land of the Free.(TM) As far as they're concerned, the North can go fuck themselves.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:58:45 PM by kkhohoho

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#177465: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:58:13 PM

The South has a ...history, and still shows obvious tells of why the US should have completed reconstruction.
And the region has an outsize influence on politics. Southern M Cs blocked social measures for decades, and the modern South was the stronghold of both the Dixiecrats and now the GOP. The growth of the Sun Belt only increased its prominence.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:58:59 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177466: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:58:31 PM

I mean, if we accept the notion that some states are distinct entities from the rest of the US, and therefore could conceivable justify fighting for independence, Hawaii has a much stronger claim to that status than the South does.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#177467: Mar 9th 2017 at 5:59:31 PM

They got more representation, actually. 3/5th Compromise meant slave owning states got more votes in Congress based on how many more slaves you had.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#177468: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:00:11 PM

Stupid "Lost Cause of the South" bullshit mythos. sad

Disgusted, but not surprised
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177469: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:01:10 PM

[up][up]Except slaves are a thing of the past in the good ol' US-of-A, so that doesn't really apply these days. Which as far as the South is concerned is part of the problem.tongue

edited 9th Mar '17 6:01:36 PM by kkhohoho

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#177470: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:03:23 PM

[up] Technically, (legal) slaves still exist in the USA, at least when it comes to prison labor. What, did you think it was a coincidence that the USA has such a relatively high incarceration rate?

edited 9th Mar '17 6:05:02 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#177471: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:04:24 PM

And prisoners are predominantly poor and/or minority individuals. Gee, what a coincidence.

Parable Since: Aug, 2009
#177472: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:05:17 PM

Instead we have voter disenfranchisement. Which nets you even more congressmen and electoral votes who only truly represent a select few.

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#177473: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:06:43 PM

Technically, the USA is a patchwork of different cultures that are varied between region to region, and even state to state. In some ways, you could argue that every region in the USA are distinct entities from one another, at least culturally. I mean, are we going to argue that Alabama has the same Culture as California? I highly doubt it. This definitely does not justify secession or the Civil War in any way, though. I'm just pointing out something obvious.tongue

Also, the 3/5th's Compromise didn't actually give the South more power in terms of representation: The south was still heavily underpopulated at the time, and since Black Slaves were not counted as Citizens, them being 3/5th as person didn't actually help them at all. This map of the 1860 Election showed that most Slave owning States had a hard time having over 10 Representatives (only 5 did), while 6 Free States had over 10 Representatives.

edited 9th Mar '17 6:11:43 PM by DingoWalley1

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#177474: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:06:43 PM

There's a reason private prisons are such a profitable racket in the USA. And of course, Trump and his bigot toady Sessions are all for them.

Disgusted, but not surprised
kkhohoho (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177475: Mar 9th 2017 at 6:07:47 PM

[up]x5 ...Well I'll be doggoned.tongue

Not that it changes my point, which is that it doesn't really affect how many votes the Southerners get these days. And I'm sure the South would love to get those slaves back out of the jailhouse so that it can.

edited 9th Mar '17 6:08:26 PM by kkhohoho


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