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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#177426: Mar 9th 2017 at 2:46:54 PM

The South was in the wrong in virtually every way possible. Period. Full Stop.

I'll never get Pride in the Confederacy.Those fuckers LOST. You're celebrating being a loser for one of the most evil nation-states to exist.

New Survey coming this weekend!
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#177427: Mar 9th 2017 at 2:47:30 PM

[up][up] Who shot first was irrelevant since both sides knew very well that war was inevitable. Far more of a problem was the fact that southern nationalism was inseparablely linked to white supremacy. Slavery being a core part of the Confederate identity was in fact one of the major reasons the U.K. and France didn't intervene on their behalf to weaken the US; it would be too hard to justify to their own citizens compared to the risks involved.

[up] If the confederacy was indeed a nation state, then you already have your answer.

edited 9th Mar '17 2:58:04 PM by CaptainCapsase

Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#177428: Mar 9th 2017 at 2:55:40 PM

[up][up]This country has a heavy cultural bent towards land ownership and farming. Versus the city people. The Civil War is painted as "Us country folk fighting them there city slicking factory owning pansies who don't know how to fucking milk a cow or live off the land. Bunch of useless vermin, we should have killed them all and broken up the concrete to make more farmland."

Nevermind that land ownership has never been more than a ripoff for the common person. Unless you're actively running a business off the land, like farming, you're financially better off finding a big enough house to rent and living by the month.

By the way, I'm back! Got a new computer and got caught up in using it for what I intended to use it for in the first place.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#177429: Mar 9th 2017 at 2:58:08 PM

[up][up] Fair enough. Still, I think that if you want to claim to be a victim of "Northern Aggression", it's preferable not to fire the first shot.

Oh God! Natural light!
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#177430: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:04:21 PM

[up][up]Not exactly exclusive to the US but agrarian areas in general tend to hold urbanites with a lot of contempt, including not considering urban men to be real men.

Which also has the urban population seeing them as nothing but uncultured and ignorant simpletons.

I'll never get Pride in the Confederacy.Those fuckers LOST. You're celebrating being a loser for one of the most evil nation-states to exist.

Because there was a romantization of the Southern side of the civil war, painting them as the rural underdog boys protecting their lands, their life style and their rights from the industrialized, rich and mighty North, while ignoring the reason why they were fighting the war to begin with being that those lands, life style and rights revolved around slavery.

Not every unlike how people mistakenly think the Nazis made Germany super efficient with law, order and built amazing super performing awe inspiring tanks, planes and ships.

edited 9th Mar '17 3:09:27 PM by AngelusNox

Inter arma enim silent leges
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#177431: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:06:53 PM

City-slickers hate rural folk and rural folk hate city-slickers, and that's how we like it 'cause it keeps us from noticing that we're all gettin' screwed by the rich.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Journeyman Overlording the Underworld from On a throne in a vault overlooking the Wasteland Since: Nov, 2010
Overlording the Underworld
#177432: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:09:05 PM

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Sumter

According to Wikipedia (I know, bad source) the fort was being reinforced before it was ever shot at, and it had a clear shot at Charleston. It'd be like Canada arming a base at Niagara Falls in response to the Trump election. The Confederacy was wrong for existing but that particular shot was a calculated risk. If they didn't take the fort out, Charleston would be vulnerable.

ETA: Depends on which rich. Bill Gates does a lot of good work, and there's others too. While I tend to think no one should be allowed more than a million dollars in their personal wallet, I could see reinvesting most of your wealth into your business to keep it strong.

edited 9th Mar '17 3:10:51 PM by Journeyman

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#177433: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:12:31 PM

Makes sense strategically, I suppose. Nevermind, then.

Oh God! Natural light!
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#177434: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:16:14 PM

A Republican (who else would it be other than a Libertarian) says that the poor just doesn't want healthcare. Invokes Jesus' name.

A first-term congressman who spent three decades as a physician — and is now part of a group of Republican doctors who have a major role in replacing Obamacare — is facing backlash after saying that poor people “just don’t want health care and aren’t going to take care of themselves.”

Rep. Roger Marshall, (R-Kan.), a member of the GOP Doctors Caucus, said comments he made to STAT were not meant to suggest that poor people take health care for granted. The comments were published in a story last week about his burgeoning role in the fight to replace the Affordable Care Act.

Just like Jesus said, ‘The poor will always be with us,’ “ Marshall said in response to a question about Medicaid, which expanded under Obamacare to more than 30 states. “There is a group of people that just don’t want health care and aren’t going to take care of themselves.”

He added that “morally, spiritually, socially,” the poor, including the homeless, “just don’t want health care.” [Doctors, hospitals and insurers oppose Republican health plan]

“The Medicaid population, which is [on] a free credit card as a group, do probably the least preventive medicine and taking care of themselves and eating healthy and exercising. And I’m not judging; I’m just saying socially that’s where they are,” he told STAT, a website focused on health-care coverage. “So there’s a group of people that even with unlimited access to health care are only going to use the emergency room when their arm is chopped off or when their pneumonia is so bad they get brought [to] the ER.”

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#177435: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:19:54 PM

As reprehensible as that statement is, it's less about one crazy dude who thinks the poor don't want healthcare as it is representative of an entire school of political thought. His sin is not in believing it but in saying it out loud.

edited 9th Mar '17 3:20:59 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#177436: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:25:40 PM

Nevermind that we're still mired in a culture that's been taught not to go to the hospital until you absolutely need it, for a variety of reasons.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#177437: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:28:29 PM

"Why would I go to the hospital? I'm just going to have to shell out a ton of money to have some doctor tell me I'm fine. It ain't worth the cost."

"Don't you have health insurance? That will cover it."

"Why would I have health insurance? What's the point of paying my hard-earned wages into health insurance that I never use?"

"Well, you would be using it if you went to a hospital."

"I told ya, I'm probably fine and hospitals are way too expensive to be worth the visit."

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#177438: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:37:42 PM

Supply Side Jesus at work again I see.

>.>

New Survey coming this weekend!
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#177439: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:41:21 PM

Poor people with authoritarian personalities like their elites. They want an alpha leader who can take care of them, and protect them from outsiders. The Civil War eliminated the local elites and replaced them with elites from the North. It's like a strange dog killed your pack leader and then took over the pack. As for exploitation, all leaders exploit their followers, and no one cares about you except kin. So it's not about freeing yourself from exploitation, that isn't even possible, it's about making sure your leader wins.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
danime91 Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
#177440: Mar 9th 2017 at 3:46:31 PM

[up]Mostly so that the responsibility for anything is taken off you. Want things to get better? The higher-ups will handle that. Things not going so well? Blame the higher-ups. See?

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#177441: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:14:44 PM

Since when were people of the Southern states not Americans? Are we still pretending that the Civil War was a legitimate exercise of self-determination, brutally and illegally crushed by the North? Cognitive dissonance, ye are alive and well. "We went and had a war, so it must have been for legitimate reasons. Otherwise, we were the bad guys."

Oh, I'm an American citizen; unquestionably, America occupies the real estate and administers it from Washington. So in the most technical of senses, I'm an American. But without any disrespect intended, I'm no countrymen of theirs in any sense that matters.

And "legitimacy" is a troubled, maybe even pointless concept when it comes to would-be independence-seekers—if you succeed, you're a legitimate nation; if not, you aren't. (Not as if the 1776 breakaway was a "legitimate exercise" by any then-accepted measure; success made the question moot.) With apologies to Mr. Ash, you then get to say, "good guy, bad guy—I'm the guy with the nation." And that's what'll happen if some future fissure (along 1860-ish lines, or otherwise) should again reach the surface one of these centuries.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#177442: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:45:15 PM

[up] If I might ask, what exactly is the central point you're trying to make with this line of argument?

The crux of all this is simply that the Confederacy wasn't really fighting for the greatest of reasons. You can't expect people to be sympathetic when the main reason for them fighting is to maintain a morally indefensible institution. People aren't going to see that as a noble struggle for emancipation and sovereignty.

edited 9th Mar '17 4:51:38 PM by Draghinazzo

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#177443: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:52:04 PM

The point we're making is that the average citizen of the South was blatantly, viciously lied to by their political masters as to the purpose for the war and the benefits to them of maintaining their society. The intellectual and moral foundations for their claim of sovereignty were absolute bullshit. Ergo, their claim itself has no validity even if you accept the basic principle of self-determination on its face.

All of this "Confederate pride" stuff is based on a lie — not just a lie, but a self-serving deception intended to dupe the gullible poor white folks into dying gruesomely to preserve the wealth of a few plantation owners. And yet you stick up for it, Jhim, out of the very same pride they played on to get those folks in the war to begin with. And that exact pride is what Fox News and Breitbart and the rest of the Republican propaganda apparatus are playing on today to get whites to vote against their own interests.

You are a victim of cognitive dissonance.

edited 9th Mar '17 4:56:04 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#177444: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:53:50 PM

GOP bill to repeal health care law has yet to win any votes from Idaho Republicans

http://www.idahostatesman.com/news/politics-government/article137481538.html

Of my home state's four congressmen (2 reps, 2 senators) the senators are still studying the bill, one rep is against it, and the other is undecided.

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#177446: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:56:10 PM

Vote for me if you want to live?

Jhimmibhob Since: Dec, 2010
#177447: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:57:20 PM

[up]x4 And my point, Fighteer, is that the "ergo" doesn't actually follow. If a region's bent on self-determination, whether or not their reasons seem wrong-headed to you & me, I tend to wish them well by default. I'm not going to decide for them where their loyalties or sense of nationhood ought to lie.

And real "cognitive dissonance" would be pretending that one liked living under American rule, and determinedly not understanding the situation. Whatever gripes varying parties played upon in the lead-up to war, none of it would've mattered if we had liked our northern neighbors, or ever had much fellow-feeling for them.

edited 9th Mar '17 5:05:48 PM by Jhimmibhob

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#177448: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:59:07 PM

Ah, yes, the classic American right to believe whatever you want, no matter how blatantly stupid or obviously contrived. You'll forgive me, I trust, if I refuse to acknowledge that.

edited 9th Mar '17 4:59:36 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
TotemicHero No longer a forum herald from the next level Since: Dec, 2009
No longer a forum herald
#177449: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:59:14 PM

That Shadowrun sourcebook that predicted Ahnold's political career becomes increasingly Hilarious in Hindsight, it seems.

Expergiscēre cras, medior quam hodie. (Awaken tomorrow, better than today.)
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#177450: Mar 9th 2017 at 4:59:33 PM

And my point is that the "ergo" doesn't actually follow. If a region's bent on self-determination, whether or not their reasons seem wrong-headed to you & me, I tend to wish them well by default. I'm not going to decide for them where their loyalties or sense of nationhood ought to lie.

Can't say I really agree that self-determination in and of itself should be held in higher regard than the moral and intellectual foundations behind it.


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