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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#176251: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:02:20 AM

[up][up][up][up]It can be downplayed if he builds that stupid ass wall. Yeah I know about George H.W. not reelecting him was basically the one good thing the baby boomers collectively decided to do. The Golf War lasted a lot less long though.

[up][up][up]The cult of personality around Trump is too big to be undone right now, not until it becomes normal and the people voting for him grow up. His supporters generally don't care about jobs as long as Mexicans are kept out of the country and Muslims are targeted for hate crimes.

edited 27th Feb '17 10:03:29 AM by Wildcard

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#176252: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:03:16 AM

He left the embassies unstaffed.

Like what the fuck.

That's not "not humanitarian", that's "not sane". It's one thing to say "America First", and another to say "America Who?"

How does he plan to collect intelligence? Make deals? Build networks?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#176253: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:04:14 AM

[up][up][up][up][up] Trump has already started his 2020 Run; He's already done all the paperwork and has already started PACing. It is abnormal for an Elected President to start their next campaign so early, but he needs the head start. I don't think that Trump will be primaried out, but that might not be impossible if the Nation declines rapidly in the next 2 years. Remember, though, that the Republicans still went with Herbert Hoover in 1932 even though his Policies as President worsened the Great Depression.

[down] That, and there was a Recession, which really kicked in after the Gulf War in the USA. A Recession is all we really need to kick Trump (and other Alt-Right, Russian Aligned Populists) out of the Presidency.

edited 27th Feb '17 10:08:35 AM by DingoWalley1

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#176254: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:04:46 AM

Bush Sr failed to get reelected mostly because he campaigned on no new taxes, and then had new taxes forced on him by the Democrat-controlled Congress.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#176255: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:13:35 AM

It's also a form of abrogation of responsibility via declaring everyone "corrupt" and therefore the problem insoluble.

Well that's not what I'm declaring at all. I just think most centrist Democrats are but aren't nearly as compromised as their Republican counterparts. I can see shades of gray.

The problem's not at all insoluble in the least at the moment.

Here's my viewpoint:

Inverted totalitarianism is a term coined by political philosopher Sheldon Wolin in 2003 to describe the emerging form of government of the United States. Wolin believed that the United States is increasingly turning into an illiberal democracy, and uses the term "inverted totalitarianism" to illustrate similarities and differences between the United States governmental system and totalitarian regimes such as Nazi Germany and the Stalinist Soviet Union. In Days of Destruction, Days of Revolt by Chris Hedges and Joe Sacco, inverted totalitarianism is described as a system where corporations have corrupted and subverted democracy and where economics trumps politics. In inverted totalitarianism, every natural resource and every living being is commodified and exploited to collapse as the citizenry is lulled and manipulated into surrendering their liberties and their participation in government through excess consumerism and sensationalism.

We've just been downgraded to an illiberal policy recently btw.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inverted_totalitarianism

Who donates to who is pretty much irrelevant.

Good joke, Ambar.

I'm sure political contributions by corporations in this day and age are out of the goodness of their heart and not because they expect a certain amount of influence.

We went over this about a million times during the election. There was zero evidence that Clinton's "corporate donors" ever influenced her voting record, and the same holds true for the majority of the Democratic Party. I'll say this again: if you're going to make sweeping statements like "the Democrats are bought and paid for" you better have some genuine hard evidence. Not a couple articles from The Daily Kos.

One article is from Daily Kos and the other is from Huffington Post.

Since you brought Hillary up, here's another one from The Washington Times on it.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#176256: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:17:30 AM

I realize I might sound hateful and angry like Trump voters who just voted to screw over Liberals because they are that petty, but realize we never did anything bad to them. Whether it be the gays,blacks, Muslims, Christians who aren't white they always attack and make policies that attack. Yeah, not all republicans and all that, just the leadership and the vast majority. So now that they have proven us all right that they are that bad, I see no problem fighting fire with fire now.

It's time for a prospective president to call republican people "hicks" or even "trailer trash" and suggest "Bans for Christians into the country because some white Christian shot up a church", (don't actually go through with it though because unlike Republican politicians I don't want anyone to actually die) say that their opponents are "Nazis" the same way their politicians use "communist".If we can get our politicians to do that, then maybe we can energize liberal people to go into he voting booths

If thats what it takes to get votes now so we could actually have a decent country like Canada, then that is what it takes.

edited 27th Feb '17 10:22:23 AM by Wildcard

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#176257: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:20:57 AM

Well, some Trump voters were disregarded continually by Democrats. I've been reading about how in states with big cities such as California their interests tend to waltz over everyone else. ~Pykrete discussed this a little in the context of Oregon and Portland.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
speedyboris Since: Feb, 2010
#176258: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:21:24 AM

Trump: Poster boy for Skewed Priorities.

edited 27th Feb '17 10:21:51 AM by speedyboris

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#176259: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:21:55 AM

I just think most centrist Democrats are

And there you have it folks. The admission of ideology over fact. Centrists must be corrupt because why else would they disagree with True Progressives (TM)? There's no actual basis for this belief, just a tribalistic conviction that anyone who isn't onboard with your way of thinking must be crooked.

Quoting Chris Hedges and The Daily Kos? Citing The Washington Times (a paper whose hatred of the Clintons dates back to Bill's administration) in order to attack Hillary? I say again—got any proof?

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#176260: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:25:53 AM

People have been using Nazi and Hitler comparisons unironically for a while now. 2016 rather made reductio ad hitlerum obsolete.
Thing is, personal attacks work best for a base motivated by hatred. It doesn't bode well for building one motivated by human rights and a just society. In essence, someone has to take the abuse and move past it to get as many people on hand to help get to better times. And we already have a party that's working on the opposite.
Not to mention, the US public is already split to the point that much of the populace, being a Trumpist is an automatic rejection in the dating world. It'd be nice to have a candidate who can say they'll bring the country together and not have my organs confused between working the laughbox or throwing up.

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#176261: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:26:41 AM

@Heap: Except for a few things for small bushiness owners, California's interest tend to be good for lots of people. Health Care, not having idiotic ID laws, Gay Marriage, actual LGBT and immigrant protection. On social issues they are good, even if some state's dominant class don't want them.

[up]Yes, people have. But our politicians don't. We need a politician to act like a "common liberal" even if it transparently obvious he or she was born with a silver spoon in their mouth.

edited 27th Feb '17 10:29:40 AM by Wildcard

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#176262: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:26:44 AM

Well, some Trump voters were disregarded continually by Democrats. I've been reading about how in states with big cities such as California their interests tend to waltz over everyone else. ~Pykrete discussed this a little in the context of Oregon and Portland.

There is a big divide between urban and rural folk. Even rural Hispanics tend to vote Republican more.

You also see a place like Nevada with one Democratic mega city which they think is made up of transplants and it suddenly feels like they don't matter anymore within their own state.

Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#176263: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:31:17 AM

[up]Hey if they stop acting like social change is the "WORST THING EVAR! THE BABY JESUS WEPT!" and stop abusing or taking away minority rights in their town maybe then they can complain about "not mattering".

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#176264: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:33:49 AM

And there you have it folks. The admission of ideology over fact. Centrists must be corrupt because why else would they disagree with True Progressives (TM)? There's no actual basis for this belief, just a tribalistic conviction that anyone who isn't onboard with your way of thinking must be crooked.

I say this not because of tribalistic conviction but because they're the ones most likely to perpetuate the system that allows the US to run as a corporatocracy.

Quoting Chris Hedges and The Daily Kos?

And why is that a bad thing? I also quoted Huffington post.

Here's an article by Mother Jones back in 2010 that includes Republicans too.

Citing The Washington Times (a paper whose hatred of the Clintons dates back to Bill's administration) in order to attack Hillary? I say again—got any proof?

The proof is in the article. Even if they are biased against her, they still backed up their argument with evidence.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#176265: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:37:49 AM

The problem with our political system isnt the corruption of individual politicians, it's with the system itself. This affects both Democrats and Republicans (although the Reps did more to create this situation). When we say "Money out of Politics" we are saying that it's the money which is the problem, not corrupt individuals in office (were that the case, we could just vote them out and problem solved). Try calling Bernie Sanders office and see if you can get him personally on the phone. Now donate a million dollars to his favorite cause or charity, and then see if he takes your call. He better, or the people who depend on that charity are going to suffer. That's the kind of corruption we are talking about- large donations create opportunities for influence that ordinary people (even masses of them) generally do not get.

And it is both parties. The cost of running for and winning an election has exploded in the last 20 years. Since the 1980's, the platforms of both parties have become significantly more pro-business, and the rhetoric of both parties has become more extreme (because zealots, while controlling fewer votes, actually contribute more money). As members of Congress have become ever more dependent upon large sums of money, and as professional lobbying firms have developed to meet that need, special interests can seek favors (usually in the form of “earmarks” which provide money for projects that corporate donors can then receive) without the necessity of any “quid pro quo” or direct exchange. This is an important point, because it’s how the players in this game manage not to violate the law. It’s the lobbyists who compile information about Congressmen, which issues they support and which industries they intend to regulate, and they also collect funders who correspond to these interests of Congressmen, and they then develop relationships over time, relationships which have the long term effect of securing large sums of money for Congressmen, and also serve the interests of their special interest clients, without any direct contact between the two.

Most of this is documented in Lawrence Lessig's book "Republic Lost", and you can find supporting data and arguments also in "Winner Take All Politics" by Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson, and "So Damn Much Money" by Robert Kaiser.

So the question become which politicians running today are most likely to support reforming the system?

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#176266: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:39:33 AM

Hey if they stop acting like social change is the "WORST THING EVAR! THE BABY JESUS WEPT!" and stop abusing or taking away minority rights in their town maybe then they can complain about "not mattering".

I don't think we should generalize all the Trump supporters into a group. The group who this way is certainly large and I think this a good characterization of the alt right but I'm going to go with Jon Stewart on this:

"Donald Trump is a reaction not just to Democrats but to Republicans," Stewart said. "He is not Republican. He's a repudiation of Republicans. But they will reap the benefit of his victory, in all of their cynicism."

"There's now this idea that anyone who voted for him has to be defined by the worst of his rhetoric," Stewart said. "There are guys in my neighborhood that I love, that I respect, that are not afraid of Mexicans and not afraid of Muslims and not afraid of blacks. They're afraid of their insurance premiums.

"In the liberal community you hate this idea of creating people as a monolith. Don't look at Muslims as a monolith. They're individuals, and that's ignorance. But everyone who voted for Trump is a monolith, is a racist. That hypocrisy is also real in our country."

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#176267: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:45:35 AM

There's also a fundamental constitutional issue. Reps have two years and tend to spend at least one of them fully campaigning. Even on off years, a MC may spend eight hours on the phone daily soliciting donations. It's rarely portrayed as something they want to do, and it's certainly easier if Joe Greenback offers to just cut a check in exchange for a seat by said MC's ear.
If that incentive broke—i.e., if the FEC were allowed to work—this problem would start to dry up. Again, who likes begging for help, much less people with the pride necessary to run for office.



[up]x6 Well, cities are concentrated human habitats, not something alien. Their residents outnumber the rural areas and generate most of the wealth that provides services both rural and urban. And the cities are the places most connected to the world. It's not like immigrant populations readily move out into the countryside. (Although everyone gets the benefit of pollution).
And many of those cosmopolitan policies are necessary for a city's survival. Even in middle ages, cities needed trade networks and knowledge from those xenoi beyond the walls to live the good life and keep making life better.
And they're not meaningless. Municipalities and counties and other state apparatuses provide for rural issues, if only they were allowed to. Neglect of local governing bodies is one of the reasons civics should be mandatory in school and possibly attending at least one local meeting as well.

edited 27th Feb '17 10:46:48 AM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#176269: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:51:13 AM

Landmark Partisan Gerrymandering Case Whitford v. Gill Heads to U.S. Supreme Court

Not sure if worried or hopeful.

EDIT: With this in mind: YES!!!!!!, SCOTUS MIGHT JUST FINALLY KILL GERRYMANDERING!!!!!!!

edited 27th Feb '17 10:59:59 AM by IFwanderer

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#176270: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:55:36 AM

"Donald Trump is a reaction not just to Democrats but to Republicans," Stewart said. "He is not Republican. He's a repudiation of Republicans. But they will reap the benefit of his victory, in all of their cynicism."
"There's now this idea that anyone who voted for him has to be defined by the worst of his rhetoric," Stewart said. "There are guys in my neighborhood that I love, that I respect, that are not afraid of Mexicans and not afraid of Muslims and not afraid of blacks. They're afraid of their insurance premiums.
"In the liberal community you hate this idea of creating people as a monolith. Don't look at Muslims as a monolith. They're individuals, and that's ignorance. But everyone who voted for Trump is a monolith, is a racist. That hypocrisy is also real in our country."

[up][up][up][up]I must respectfully dissent from this view, and say that those who voted for him must take responsibility for the worst of his rhetoric, because they willingly gave it (via him) power of the presidency.
A profile of Trump voters shows that his supporters were largely middle class—not poor (another parallel to the 1930s), but I'll have to dig up those statistics.
To the point of creating monoliths. There is a difference b/w Islamophobia and the rejection of Trumpists. Xenophobic hatred toward Muslims (women, LGBT persons, blacks, etc.) is arbitrary note . Disdain of Trumpists is based upon the words and actions of Trump, and the actual actions of his supporters (voting for him/ defending him) that gave those words the ability to become policy.
In short, it's not hypocrisy. We all saw the evidence of what Trumpists were (all of them voluntarily voted for Trump after seeing his campaign), while no such equivalent exists for Muslims (a few nominal Muslims carried out violent attacks).

edited 27th Feb '17 11:02:55 AM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
Wildcard Since: Jun, 2012
#176271: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:56:59 AM

@Madskillz: Didn't say all Trump supporters, just a whole lot and their politicians.

@Heap:Yes, living in a city can be hard, but we need them and they often give us great social change.

[up][awesome]

edited 27th Feb '17 11:00:15 AM by Wildcard

Advarielle Homicidal Editor Since: Aug, 2016
Homicidal Editor
#176272: Feb 27th 2017 at 10:59:23 AM

I personally consider Republicans and ultra nationalist right wing nutjobs as among the dumbest persons in the world, and yet they actually manage to do one thing right.

Let's use climbing a mountain as a metaphor of getting re-elected, running a government, consolidating power, and so on. The republicans at least know that you need to actually climb that mountain to win. Meanwhile, the democrats are busy at the foot of that mountain discussing which mountain that they want to climb. Do they want the average one? The tall one? Or the tallest one?

Sure, climbing the mountain blindly isn't perfect and that we can't optimize our government. After all, we're just climbing blindly. We don't know whether the mountain that we climb is the best or not. Despite all that, we still need to climb the mountain to matter. The democrats seem to think that once everything is perfect (and it's unlikely that it'll ever be perfect) that they will magically and instantly catch up to the Republicans who have been climbing since the very beginning of the race.

Seriously, stop this. If I don't know any better, I can seriously think that the Republicans are smarter than the democrats.

Only an experienced editor who has a name possesses the ability to truly understand my work - What 90% of writers I'm in charge of said.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#176273: Feb 27th 2017 at 11:00:46 AM

Trump's going to end up walking back more than that. Economic forecasts have US GDP falling below 2% by 2020.

@IF Wanderer: That's exciting news!

@Century Eye/Wildcard: The problem being that we cant win 2018 or 2020 without finding a way to appeal to at least some of Trump's supporters. That means finding a way to connect to the needs and interests of the white rural middle class.

edited 27th Feb '17 11:08:08 AM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#176274: Feb 27th 2017 at 11:12:19 AM

A few stories I came across in my news feeds.

Arizona Senate votes to seize assets of those who plan, participate in protests that turn violent:
http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2017/02/22/arizona-senate-crackdown-on-protests/

Rick Santorum: ‘Millions of Americans’ with preexisting conditions are scammers stealing health care:
https://www.rawstory.com/2017/02/rick-santorum-millions-of-americans-with-preexisting-conditions-are-scammers-stealing-health-care/

Idaho Democrat says GOP businessman should switch parties:
http://www.ktvb.com/mb/news/politics/idaho-democrat-says-gop-businessman-should-switch-parties/414864108

TheHandle United Earth from Stockholm Since: Jan, 2012 Relationship Status: YOU'RE TEARING ME APART LISA
United Earth
#176275: Feb 27th 2017 at 11:16:46 AM

You mean US GDP growth? Or do you mean falling by 2%?

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.

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