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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175951: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:39:11 PM

[up][up] Yeah; Ellison was clearly acceptable to the establishment given a lot of them endorsed him, and if this battle over party identity isn't won decisively by 2018 one way or the other, the democrats aren't going to be taking many seats, if any.

edited 25th Feb '17 4:39:47 PM by CaptainCapsase

pwiegle Cape Malleum Majorem from Nowhere Special Since: Sep, 2015 Relationship Status: Singularity
Cape Malleum Majorem
#175952: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:41:24 PM

Btw, did we already discuss the theory that Trump has trouble with reading?

It's been mentioned before, and one or two instances have been cited. I recall a film clip that showed Trump being quizzed on some policy issue. He was provided with the relevant info on a printout right there in front of him, and even when prompted ("page X, paragraph Y") he just shuffled randomly through the papers and stared dumbly at them, as if they were written in a language completely unfamiliar to him (like, say, English.)

He may not actually be functionally illiterate or dyslexic or what-have-you, but he's got the attention span of a gnat, and is definitely not the reading type. He has freely admitted that he gets his information primarily through television.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175953: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:42:33 PM

Trump apparently reads newspapers (including the NYT, hence his obsession over how they're covering him), and prefers to have web pages printed out rather than viewing them on a computer, so I'm skeptical of that theory.

edited 25th Feb '17 4:43:08 PM by CaptainCapsase

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#175954: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:43:17 PM

But mostly I'm downright angry at anyone- on either side of this- who looks at a race between two qualified people who respect each other deeply and have very similar views on policy and tries to turn it into an excuse to tear the party in half. And saying 'the other side started it' makes me respect you even less. If they did start, then you get to be the one who ends it.

Do you know what angers me? That the side who has been the most outspoken about healthcare for everyone, for people being able to study whatever they want without needing to pay off enormous loans, for fighting extreme wealth inequality, for enacting no half-hearted measures against climate change, etc., constantly gets marginalized in a system in which corporate interests are the only winners. So no, this is not about some petty feud. This is about the fact that the DNC thinks that 'the Sanders wing taking over' is somehow a bad thing. And yes, in a sense this vote was only symbolic, but it is a pretty powerful symbol showing that the hills have become so steep that they're almost impossible for any of such Democrats to climb anymore. I'm simply acknowledging this reality, not saying that it's wise to not vote anymore, but that it's understandable that people have become disillusioned.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175955: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:47:35 PM

I mean, I agree that Ellison would've been the better choice from an optics perspective, but if people are acting shitty, the fact that said behavior was predictable and preventable does not mean it's not shitty behavior.

[up]All I'm saying is 'how about you save that outrage for something that actually f*cking matters'. And 'which side of the anti-Trump side won this particular purely symbolic battle' is not a thing that matters.

edited 25th Feb '17 4:51:25 PM by Gilphon

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175956: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:48:37 PM

[up] If it's predictable and preventable, arguing over the morality of it is about as futile as condemning a hurricane for flooding a city.

edited 25th Feb '17 4:56:32 PM by CaptainCapsase

fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#175957: Feb 25th 2017 at 4:59:54 PM

wild mass guess Perez and Ellison wanted to jointly be dnc chair but couldn't due to reasons so they both privately agreed that whoever won would make the other deputy chair and be done with it.wild mass guess

Too bad it still backfired on them-they're clearly happy to work together yet petty infighting is trying to paint them as two enemies.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175958: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:03:26 PM

[up][up]The difference is that I can't convince a hurricane or flood to stop. And, well, while I obviously can't stop everyone raising a stink about this either, I might be able to convince one or two of them to calm down.

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#175959: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:04:51 PM

[up][up]Not unlikely given their recent meeting.

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#175960: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:06:55 PM

You'd almost think they were colleagues or something.

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175961: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:11:39 PM

[up] Obviously Ellison and Perez didn't really see the race in such terms, but both of them had to be aware of the tensions under the surface; Labor in the UK has been tearing itself apart since Brexit, and the same is happening on a smaller scale here, and in center-left coalitions around the world that have been shoved aside by right wing demagogues.

edited 25th Feb '17 5:12:13 PM by CaptainCapsase

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#175962: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:11:50 PM

I like how some economic justice warriors thinks that Tom Perez, a guy who is pro-labor rights and pro-union, is a corporate shill.

Fucking purity tests. Even when the guy actually passes it, it still doesn't count.

And honestly, who actually heard either of these two before this mess anyway?

edited 25th Feb '17 5:13:14 PM by NoName999

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#175963: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:13:57 PM

Donald Trump: Congratulations to Thomas Perez, who has just been named Chairman of the DNC. I could not be happier for him, or for the Republican Party!

Ouch. https://mobile.twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/835610917568200705

Remember, Trump also praised Schumer (the Current Senate Minority Leader) before he actually took office: Now Trump is constantly belittling him.

This is worthless, just like all of the other praises from Trump to anyone else.

[down][down] No I did not.tongue

edited 25th Feb '17 5:17:27 PM by DingoWalley1

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175964: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:14:07 PM

Some of the discussions surounding the DNC vote

The centerists are arguing that the upswell in grassroots support floats all boats, so to speak.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175965: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:14:31 PM

[up][up][up] I knew of both of them. I don't really mind Perez as chair, but people really want to see new faces in party leadership positions, and Perez is, by virtue of being part of Obama's cabinet, not a new face.

@Dingo: You do realize that's one of his typical backhanded compliments right?

[up] Yeah, that's not going to work; people will just get more and more disillusioned, and more and more convinced that we have no option but to sit down and take whatever Trump's clique decides is going to happen. Fortunately a significant number of high ranking democrats seem to realize that.

edited 25th Feb '17 5:18:01 PM by CaptainCapsase

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#175966: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:18:00 PM

[up]x5 Labour is in the opposite position though - they responded by voting a more left wing politician in as the party leader and they're now losing even harder than before because while he could engage well with the Labour member base, the Parliamentary Labour Party (many former Blairists) tried to restore their faction to power.

At the same time Corbyn has revealed himself to be a completely incompetent communicator outside of the Labour base and this + his lukewarm Remain support and subsequent embrace of 'soft Brexit' has started to erode his popularity significantly.

You can't compare the two just because they're the opposition.

edited 25th Feb '17 5:18:32 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#175967: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:19:14 PM

Do you know what angers me? That the side who has been the most outspoken about healthcare for everyone, for people being able to study whatever they want without needing to pay off enormous loans, for fighting extreme wealth inequality, for enacting no half-hearted measures against climate change, etc., constantly gets marginalized in a system in which corporate interests are the only winners.
This is patently nonsense. The Bernie wing and the Hillary wing are functionally identical in terms of policy positions. Refusing to support the mainstream party because you declare them too conservative when they agree with you on 90% of the issues is shooting yourself in the foot. By all means, call them out on the things you disagree with them on, but there's an enormous difference between "they're okay but I wish they were farther left (so I'm going to pressure them in that direction, but still support them)" and "they're not even liberal, unless [your preferred candidate here] is running I'm not even going to vote for them".

In a two party system, not voting for the guy you largely agree with means effectively voting for the guy you largely disagree with. That's the way the system works. You don't have to like it, but you have to live with it, because it's what we got (until and unless someone changes it).

From where I'm standing, most of the Bernie Bro crowd are just high on being the "outsider", which is great for them because it lets them blame others for failing without actually having to do anything themselves. Remember how quickly they turned on Sanders for "selling out" once he finally conceded the primary and endorsed Clinton in the general? The main draw for these people isn't Sanders himself, or even his policies, it's being able to yell at Democrats so they can feel good about themselves for being real liberals, not like those bums running the Democratic party.

Note that I'm not saying everyone who preferred Bernie to Hillary is like this, or anyone who wants to see the Democrats shift left. Just the people screaming their heads off about really dumb shit, like declaring the death of liberalism in America because their guy ended up deputy DNC chair instead of being voted in as DNC chair.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175968: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:19:30 PM

[up][up] They're in an opposite but very similar position; an internal struggle is occurring between the center and the left. Something similar is happening around the world in center-left coalitions.

edited 25th Feb '17 5:21:30 PM by CaptainCapsase

math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#175969: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:22:27 PM

Happened in the 1930's too.

Also, this is only really a problem in two-party systems. In multiple party coalition systems it tends to be more about which support parties win seats.

edited 25th Feb '17 5:24:04 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#175970: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:26:06 PM

Question: I'm going through earlier pages and the attitude towards Perez's win as DNC chair, and my question is that, "my guy didn't win" griping aside, is there actually any concern that he won't be able or capable of performing his new job? Because, I'll be honest, I care far less about some minor policy differences than I do about having someone who's actually a fit for the job in the position. Trump's cabinet is displaying well why that's an important factor to consider.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#175971: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:26:14 PM

The irony is that Ellison had more endorsements from the so called Democrat establishment.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175972: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:26:33 PM

[up][up][up] Yeah, it's much less of a problem in multiparty systems, which is why it's quite likely Le Pen WON'T become the president of France, though sadly it's far from impossible.

[up] Which is why Perez running was kinda baffling; Ellison's support was from all wings of the party.

edited 25th Feb '17 5:27:55 PM by CaptainCapsase

Mio Since: Jan, 2001
#175973: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:29:43 PM

[up][up][up]Ellison had more campaign and electoral experience then Perez did, but that's about the only thing that definitely sets them apart as far as doing the job goes.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175974: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:40:10 PM

But in Atlanta, many Democrats were convinced they didn’t need Ellison to harness grassroots excitement. It’s not just Sanders’s backers who are energized, they argued. And officials said they are confident that most of the Sanders/Ellison wing will come back into the fold even with Perez as chair — in part to oppose Trump, and in part because Ellison and Sanders are themselves committed to party unity.

So hubris bordering on stupidity. I guess they really did learn nothing.

Did they not get the memo that Sanders supporters are perfectly willing to stay home and not vote if no one catches their eye even if Sanders pushes people towards the establishment Democrat candidate?

Before the vote, Ellison supporters said they worried the grassroots, populist energy would leave the party if Perez won. “The Perez folks don't have anywhere else to go. They’re good Democrats. But that’s not true for a lot for the Ellison folks,” said Cliff Moone, a DNC voting member and Ellison supporter from Hickory, NC.

Two Ellison supporters on Friday admitted they felt the same way. If Ellison lost, said Krupesh Patel, a 30-year-old clutching a green “Keith Ellison for DNC Chair” sign, “it would just look terrible because they're trying to burn the left again.” Scott Brown, 31, nodded in agreement. “There’d be no good reason to say, ‘Hey, the Democratic Party cares about Bernie Sanders’s primary voters,’” Brown says. “This is maybe only our second chance to bring the party together.”

And even Ellison supporters open to the possibility of unity under Perez admitted it would be difficult to achieve. “There's going to be a silent undercurrent that will stay away because they'll feel their voices were not heard,” said Denise D. Adams, a city council member from Winston-Salem, North Carolina.

Calling that faction “silent” might have been too hopeful. When outgoing Chair Donna Brazile announced that Perez had won, a chant broke out among a few dozen Ellison supporters, drowning out the chair at the front of the room: “Party for the people: Not big money! Party for the people: Not big money!”

A handful of Ellison supporters left the room in anger. Others tried to quiet down their own side, while a Perez supporter yelled across the room for them to be quiet.

Indeed, the country’s two biggest socialist organizations — the Democratic Socialists of America and the Socialist Alternative — immediately moved to use the news of Ellison’s loss for recruitment.

Alexandria Ellison, the candidate’s 22-year-old niece, said that many of her friends were talking about leaving the Democratic Party if the Minnesota congressman lost. But Alexandria Ellison, like her uncle, said she’d work within the party — and said that she thought it was likely many would do the same.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175975: Feb 25th 2017 at 5:43:15 PM

[up] It's just a single race, though that being said, it's certainly looking like this antagonism between the left and center is going to continue dogging the democrats, which is exactly what we don't need in the era of Trump.

edited 25th Feb '17 5:43:49 PM by CaptainCapsase


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