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Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175851: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:31:14 PM

[up][up][up][up]Quite frankly, fuck those people. If you're going to wage a massive in-fighting war because of what you perceive as a symbolic loss with no practical impact, you might as well be voting Trump.

edited 25th Feb '17 2:31:35 PM by Gilphon

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#175852: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:32:29 PM

I decided to check out TYT, Secular Talk and all those other far left assholes Twitters for some salt...

These people are delusional.

I'm sorry, but if you lack the basic knowledge that Tom Perez ( a person who probably has more relationships with Unions than probably ANY Congressman or Senator) is pretty pro labour and Union rights, then you don't deserve to lead the Democrats. That kind of ignorance is frankly unforgivable.

I hope Justice Democrats crash and fucking burn.

New Survey coming this weekend!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175853: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:34:37 PM

Executive Director of Social Security Works on it:

“Keith Ellison had incredible support from the quote-unquote establishment side of the party, the progressive side of the party, the grassroots and the elected officials. Nobody was clamoring for another entrance, and yet we got one foisted upon us. If Tom Perez were to win, the message that would send to the grassroots, to labor unions that endorsed Ellison before Tom Perez joined the race, [is] that their voices, their muscle, their enthusiasm and turnout doesn’t matter.

At that point, why should any progressive waste his or her time with the Democrats? Why keep traveling on a road that so obviously culminates in a dead end? Why give them your money, your time, or your hope? Hell, you wouldn’t even be making an empty threat—it’s just plain stupid to stick around when you’re clearly not wanted. The Dems have made their point, they’ve won, and to enact true change, it’s time for progressives to look elsewhere. What’s the problem?"

And then there's this:

Clearly, we are at an impasse. And with both sides insisting on their own agendas, there’s just one critical question when deciding who should prevail: What are the real differences here? I can think of two.

1. If the progressives win, the Democratic party won’t really lose any voters. Are there that many liberals in America who insist on fealty to Wall Street, hate labor unions, love fracking, adore banks, and long for free trade? To the extent that they would ditch the main opposition to Trump? Please. On the other hand, a centrist victory will be quite costly—the Dems will lose progressives like me and millions of others who supported Bernie Sanders in the primary. I voted for Hillary Clinton because the “lesser of two evils” argument won me over in the end, but if the party shows that it has learned nothing from that debacle, I won’t vote for the next Hillary Clinton, whoever that is, and there are many, many more like me.

Oh, and the second difference?

2. They. Fucking. Lost.

Seriously. Do not forget that. They tried it their way, and they lost to Donald Trump.

So tell me again: On what planet do the centrists have a right to dictate terms to progressives? It’s quite audacious, actually—their power comes solely from entrenched parties within the institution, and not at all from the people, and yet they are trying to strong-arm everyone into repeating the same stupid mistake that gave us Trump in the first place.

In a sane world, one in which the centrists took some accountability for their massive electoral failure, progressives would be dictating all the terms. But, speaking of sanity and its opposite, have you heard that quote about doing the same thing over and over while expecting new results? Yeah.

That is the great kicker to the entire centrist argument. When boiled down to its most absurd form, it reads like this: “If you really want to defeat Trump, come with us, the people who lost to him last time and have no new ideas.”

If Perez wins, and Ellison gets shunted aside, everyone will have to make his or her own choice about where to go next. It may be that party unity does, in fact, win the day, and in 2020 the powers-that-be marshal their forces behind some corrupt ghoul like Cory Booker, and try to rally a reluctant left for another dispiriting race. But as for me, I’m done. The ascension of Perez will tell me everything I need to know about where the party is headed, and how much they care about even token displays of progressivism. We’ll be on the same depressing roller coaster to irrelevance and defeat, led by essentially the same people, and I want no part of it. I’ll support a breakaway progressive party, if one emerges, or I’ll give up national politics for dead and focus my attention on local races. But I won’t be strong-armed, and I know I’m not alone.

Why? Because it never ends. This is how powerful people keep their power, and this is why the progressive moment in America never arrives. They said we had to vote for Hillary, because Trump would be worse, and a lot of us bought it. Now, they’re reprising the same support-us-or-else argument, and they still have nothing better to offer than “Trump is bad.” This is the opposite of visionary politics—it’s codified negativity, and even if that negativity is true, its primacy in all messaging still represents the absence of forward thinking. The party has become a regressive embarrassment that believes in nothing but bolstering a rotten status quo, and the corruption is evident to everyone. If they won’t commit to the kind of change that galvanizes a growing progressive movement and produces lasting victory, they shouldn’t be coddled by a fearful base. They should be abandoned.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#175854: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:36:20 PM

[up]Case #1: Trump enabler.

God, sometimes I wish left leaning voters were as mindlessly loyal as right leaning ones.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Lightysnake Since: May, 2010
#175855: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:36:52 PM

Stop acting like "they" lost on their own when these purity factions kept dropping barbed wire in front of their path while simultaneously clearing Trump's.

Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#175856: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:37:58 PM

That's a rather interesting phenomenon actually, that right-wingers all hate progressives so much that they'll always fall in line while left-wing voters have all this in-fighting and wanting the perfect candidate.

Swanpride Since: Jun, 2013
#175857: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:38:02 PM

It is in a way not worth getting into a spat with Trump over his claims about Paris, Sweden and Germany. Because even if he were right (which he isn't), it would be a false equivalent anyway. When we took all those refugees, we pretty much couldn't check them as thoroughly as we would have liked to because the situation was chaotic and decisions had to be made fast. That is not true for the US. They can check every refugee which comes through their relocation program thoroughly with the help of their secret service. The only answer Trump deserves is a reminder why there are so many refugees on the move in the first place. It was not because of something Sweden, Germany or France did....the US and the UK should take a good look in the mirror, though.

edited 25th Feb '17 2:38:19 PM by Swanpride

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#175858: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:40:01 PM

I love how all these anti-Perez arguments come back to the idea that somehow he isn't a progressive.

He was considered a legitimate threat to Conservatives and Corporations, but the left turned on him the moment he didn't receive Our Lord and Savior Bernie's Endorsement.

New Survey coming this weekend!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175859: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:40:57 PM

My preference was for Ellison to win, if only to seize control of Bernie's cult of personality and manipulate it towards reaping electoral dividends,

This is my opinion too. We shouldn't crash against Bernie's wave of popularity. We should be riding it.

So this decision even makes me a little angry because it's such a stupid tactic. Give them what they want here and they'll love you. It hardly costs the party anything.

CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#175860: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:41:02 PM

Honestly, the best thing Bernie can do right now is die of old age. I'm fucking sick of that old man and his lunatic fanbase.

edited 25th Feb '17 2:41:58 PM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175861: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:41:05 PM

Mhm.

This paragraph is particular marks the speaker as a fucker:

If Perez wins, and Ellison gets shunted aside, everyone will have to make his or her own choice about where to go next. It may be that party unity does, in fact, win the day, and in 2020 the powers-that-be marshal their forces behind some corrupt ghoul like Cory Booker, and try to rally a reluctant left for another dispiriting race. But as for me, I’m done. The ascension of Perez will tell me everything I need to know about where the party is headed, and how much they care about even token displays of progressivism. We’ll be on the same depressing roller coaster to irrelevance and defeat, led by essentially the same people, and I want no part of it. I’ll support a breakaway progressive party, if one emerges, or I’ll give up national politics for dead and focus my attention on local races. But I won’t be strong-armed, and I know I’m not alone.

Like, there's a guy outright saying he'd prefer Trump to a centrist and still having the gall to call himself a progressive.

MarqFJA The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer from Deserts of the Middle East (Before Recorded History) Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
#175862: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:41:35 PM

Would someone be kind enough to give a summary of what Perez and Ellison are like as Democrats/politicians? Some of us have no idea who either of them are before seeing their names mentioned here recently, let alone their political positions and the like.

Fiat iustitia, et pereat mundus.
Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175863: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:43:11 PM

Their political position are basically completely identical. The only really difference between them is the Sanders supported Ellison and more 'establishment' figures supported Perez.

edited 25th Feb '17 2:47:16 PM by Gilphon

JBC31187 Since: Jan, 2015
#175864: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:44:19 PM

Well, Perez is a pretty progressive on labor rights. Also, this guy Ellison seems to like him, but he's just been made Perez's deputy, so I'm not sure if he's trustworthy...

fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#175865: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:46:42 PM

What bothers me is the idea that Perez shouldn't have run just because Ellison was there. Maybe, just maybe, he thought he could do a better job than Ellison, and the two of them get along just fine. God, can't we just respect them both?

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#175866: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:48:18 PM

Honestly, the best thing Bernie can do right now is die of old age. I'm fucking sick of that old man.

Now, I don't want Bernie dead, but I do think it's very worrying that this guy, who was essentially a small state Independent Senator that was an unknown by the mainstream until last year, has essentially hijacked a large minority of People in a Political Party he isn't even really a part of.

I know America is getting progressively more liberal as time goes on, but this guy is essentially a Lord to a lot of Democrats/Liberals. It's almost like Sanders is a repeat of Theodore Roosevelt. I wouldn't be surprised at this point if the Progressive Liberal "Social Democrats" completely split off and form the 4th gen Progressive Party (Yes, it has had 2 additional incarnations since Teddy's 1912 run).

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#175867: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:50:46 PM

Also, PSA, being establishment and being a progressive are NOT mutually exclusive things, no matter how much some want to delude themselves that it is.

New Survey coming this weekend!
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175868: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:52:01 PM

He was considered a legitimate threat to Conservatives and Corporations, but the left turned on him the moment he didn't receive Our Lord and Savior Bernie's Endorsement.

Well that's not really true. A lot of progressives turned against Perez when he tried to cast Bernie as the party candidate for whites.

And I know Ambar argued that he was but frankly that's not really true. Young Latinos and African-Americans all over the country preferred Bernie to Hillary. So Perez's argument that Bernie is the candidate for white people is maddening.

It's more of a generational divide between the Baby Boomers & Generation X on one side and Millenials on the other rather than a race based one.

Gilphon (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175870: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:59:53 PM

[up][up]And now you're back to re-hashing the goddamn primary. How about you drop it there, before you say something that makes me add to you to 'fuck the people who are making a big deal out of this' category?

TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#175871: Feb 25th 2017 at 2:59:58 PM

[up][up][up]So that's why Bernie won all those states in the South and didn't get destroyed in majority-Minority states...

Oh. Wait.

edited 25th Feb '17 3:00:12 PM by TacticalFox88

New Survey coming this weekend!
Lennik (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175873: Feb 25th 2017 at 3:04:51 PM

Honestly, the best thing Bernie can do right now is die of old age. I'm fucking sick of that old man and his lunatic fanbase.

This is a completely asinine thing to say. Do I really have to explain why? The Democrats need Bernie's "fanbase." He was the candidate of many young liberals, who the Democrats need badly if they hope to have a future as a national party. It's fine to say that the Bernie Or Busters were immature and reckless and maybe even stupid, but to outright wish death on an incredibly popular liberal figure because people like him too much and he took the spotlight from your party's eventual nominee is every bit as petty and immature as anything the Bernie Or Busters have done.

He had every right to run for president, by the way. I don't think it's crazy to assert that many establishment Democrats are still sore about that, because the party was already clearly pulling for Hillary Clinton.

edited 25th Feb '17 3:08:53 PM by Lennik

That's right, boys. Mondo cool.
math792d Since: Jun, 2011 Relationship Status: Drift compatible
#175874: Feb 25th 2017 at 3:05:40 PM

Honestly, it feels less like this is a symbolic loss for progressives and more like it's a symbolic loss for the 'Bernie or Bust' faction, and frankly, fuck them.

The man himself seems like a decent candidate, but his creepy cult is just fucking embarassing.

edited 25th Feb '17 3:06:33 PM by math792d

Still not embarrassing enough to stan billionaires or tech companies.
fruitpork Since: Oct, 2010
#175875: Feb 25th 2017 at 3:07:34 PM

I'm not a huge fan of bernie but wishing death on him is uncalled for. Honestly he could even run for senator again as long as it kept a republican out.


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