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TacticalFox88 from USA Since: Nov, 2010 Relationship Status: Dating the Doctor
#175701: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:15:39 PM

I don't think I've ever hated a group of human beings than the GOP, Trump, and his cabinet.

New Survey coming this weekend!
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#175702: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:16:56 PM

[up][up][up] Most of those politicians know that they are politically screwed, and that this may be the last 2 years they have (excluding Rubio, who's got 5+ and is just a gutless coward). So they'd rather do whatever the hell they want for these 2 years before losing everything, and not feel guilty about it until later.

It's 2010 all over again, except the Democrats had spines and at least attended their own Town Halls before running. Most of these Republicans are so cowardly.

edited 24th Feb '17 2:17:06 PM by DingoWalley1

Eschaton Since: Jul, 2010
#175703: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:19:35 PM

If you think the election of a bonafide neofascist is business as usual for the United States, you aren't paying attention. To act as if Trump is some sort of representation of America's "true colours" is to, as others have already pointed out, ignore that he lost the popular vote by a mile.
To say he reveals America's definitive "true nature" is nonsense, but unfortunately he is not an aberration or a fluke; this did not come out of nowhere. He represents trends and impulses that are not un-American, but rather all-too familiar, having roots that go back not just decades, but hundreds of years.

And the American rejection and resistance to those noxious ideas are equally longstanding. If we think those ideas should be un-American, we've still got our work cut out for us.

However, of the ideas that are being imported by Republicans, it is extremely concerning that they are coming from 1930s Central and Eastern European nationalists.

edited 24th Feb '17 2:20:51 PM by Eschaton

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#175704: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:22:57 PM

The sheer incompetence of the Trump regime may prove to be its downfall. See, the thing about totalitarian movements is that they only stay in power if they deliver on their promises to make The Trains Run on Time and whatnot. Most importantly, it is crucial that the people who would resist their rule see the advantages (power, wealth, comfort) that accrue to those who go along, and a sufficient number either change sides or give up the resistance.

If Trump's policies work to deliver prosperity to the people who voted for him, then we'll be in real trouble. Fortunately, there is no sign that such will happen — quite the opposite, in fact.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#175705: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:32:42 PM

It'll be interesting to see if this fiasco will be enough to break American Hegemony. That'll be a bitter pill to swallow.

edited 24th Feb '17 2:34:03 PM by Lanceleoghauni

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175706: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:33:50 PM

Well, to be fair, lots of dems did just that eight years ago.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#175707: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:34:36 PM

[up]Hopefully it doesn't, because you'll get Russian and/or Chinese Hegemony in its place. At you get best India and a fantasy never-going-happen European Union taking up the slack.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175708: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:39:41 PM

No one here is saying that America is a shining bastion of goodness and light who's never done anything wrong, ever. But saying that Trump is simply business as usual for America except with the pleasant veneer stripped away isn't true either. The amount of backlash that Trump is getting from the American public is evidence enough of that.

Well again, I'm talking about foreign policy goals. Global hegemony at the end of a gun if need be is business as usual in America.

Trump's just a lot more aggressive about it.

There's a disturbing amount of continuity between Bush, Obama and Trump in terms of military foreign policy.

If you think the election of a bonafide neofascist is business as usual for the United States, you aren't paying attention. To act as if Trump is some sort of representation of America's "true colours" is to, as others have already pointed out, ignore that he lost the popular vote by a mile.

He lost the popular vote but he got nearly half the voters (over 40 million). That is damning imo.

And I mean if you look back on it, America has been flirting with fascism for over a century. FDR had a pretty good opinion of Mussolini as did most of America's business leaders. American companies like Ford, GM, General Electric, Chase etc. aided and abetted the Nazis. America at large were even fairly supportive of Hitler in the mid-30's.

And hell, we voted in the son and grandson of a man who helped the Nazis out. George Bush and George HW Bush.

Trump is a pseudo-fascist. Trump would need to have an actual ideology to be a real fascist. He's more incoherent than anything else.

The fascists are the people surrounding him namely Bannon and Miller but even then Bannon is just putting a racist coloring on neocon foreign goals. Clashing with China and the Muslim world.

There's something to be said about the world viewing America as the number one threat to global stability even before Trump was elected.

In particular, the view that America is Evil contributes to the toxic meme that we should not bother to try to fix it, that Trump's Chumps are not an aberration in a functioning democracy but an expression of the true nature of our country, and it's only taken this long to come out because we've managed to paper it over. It's an inherently defeatist point of view that plays directly into the hands of people who want to make totalitarianism the default state of government. Putin's propaganda team has been busily trying to seed this notion, and has already largely succeeded within Russia. They point to the corruption and malfeasance that accompanied the 2016 election as evidence: "Look, America isn't a shining exemplar of liberty after all. They're just as corrupt as we are. You should get used to it, because it's how the world works." The more resigned we become about how we're fundamentally corrupt as a nation, the less capable we become of taking any effective action against corruption, and that's exactly what the corrupt want. Killing hope is one of the most effective and powerful tools of the dictator.

Well I don't think America is evil. It's frankly just corrupt and I am all for trying to fix it because it can be fixed.

Trump's chumps aren't aberrations though. They're extensions of the bitterness and anger that is aimed at a system that is shitting all over people.

When George W Bush was running, he successfully positioned himself as a candidate that would pull back on being the global police and not the type to nation build. He lied of course.

Obama positioned himself a candidate for hope and change. But he didn't do enough and his presidency was nearly neutered in the cradle.

And Trump positioned himself as a candidate for making America great again. It's just that he's lying about that too.

I don't think people are losing hope though. If anything people are getting angrier every election. They're trying every candidate out because they know there is something rotten in the system but they can't figure out what it is. They think Trump is going to be a bludgeon to wreck the whole thing down because they want something different.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175709: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:40:14 PM

On this discussion, seems a good time to break out this "rant" on the idea that Trump shows America's true colors. Something I had been thinking regard to Leftists mocking people saying that "we are not like that" as well as Clinton's slogan of "America is great because America is good".

So Trump undeniably is in line with the bad aspects of America, but at the same time, there is an idealistic "promise" of America and I think that various civil rights movements are all about making the country live up to its ideals as well as to include more people under the heading of American.

So, to that end, it feels kind of insulting to those people's efforts to insist that the country is fundamentally evil, in which case there was no point in trying. And I'd also say that the criticism misses the point that to some extent the kind of patriotic rhetoric used by Clinton and other Democrats is about trying to co-opt the language of patriotism in support of progressive ideals/to frame those ideals as in line with or even emblematic of American patriotism. It's not naive; it's just theoretically a more productive way of winning support than going on about America sucking.

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#175710: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:42:06 PM

The sheer incompetence of the Trump regime may prove to be its downfall. See, the thing about totalitarian movements is that they only stay in power if they deliver on their promises to make The Trains Run on Time and whatnot. Most importantly, it is crucial that the people who would resist their rule see the advantages (power, wealth, comfort) that accrue to those who go along, and a sufficient number either change sides or give up the resistance.

If Trump's policies work to deliver prosperity to the people who voted for him, then we'll be in real trouble. Fortunately, there is no sign that such will happen — quite the opposite, in fact.

But no totalitarian movement ever made The Trains Run on Time. Not Hitler, not Mussolini, not Stalin, not Saddam, not Franco, not Pol Pot, and not any of the others. It's always Fascist, but Inefficient (even when it isn't fascism, but some other flavor of totalitarianism). Totalitarianism is always marred by gross corruption, incompetence, and inefficiency far in excess of what even the most extreme promoter of Democracy Is Bad has ever accused rule by the people of. And yet, many of these regimes lasted long enough to fall to outside forces instead of collapsing on their own inefficiency and incompetence.

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#175711: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:42:49 PM

He lost the popular vote but he got nearly half the voters (over 40 million). That is damning imo.

63 million, actually. With a population of 318.9 million, this means that Trump represents 19.76% of America. And even that margin is turning on him.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Lanceleoghauni Cyborg Helmsman from Z or R Twice Since: Jan, 2001 Relationship Status: In my bunk
#175712: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:43:53 PM

America does have a problem with continuously doing the wrong thing. Can't help but want to grab the Alphabet Soup agencies by the lapels and shake them while chanting "Stop Being Evil". America can be a lot better than we let it be.

"Coffee! Coffeecoffeecoffee! Coffee! Not as strong as Meth-amphetamine, but it lets you keep your teeth!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#175713: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:47:25 PM

Ironically, one of the nastiest Alphabet agencies might be our last hope against Trump.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175714: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:48:51 PM

63 million, actually. With a population of 318.9 million, this means that Trump represents 19.76% of America. And even that margin is turning on him.

Well no. It's even larger than that. There's only 200 million registered voters. So 1/3 of America voted for him. And the other 1/3 didn't even bother trying to stop him.

edited 24th Feb '17 2:59:53 PM by MadSkillz

sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#175715: Feb 24th 2017 at 2:50:10 PM

When this topic comes up I'm always reminded of the Discworld quote that you can't call yourselves the good guys and do bad guy things.

Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#175716: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:00:58 PM

Yeah. Especially when you get people like Paul Ryan saying things that indicate that he literally doesn't understand the difference between wealth and freedom.

I quote: "Freedom is the ability to buy what you want to fit what you need." -Paul Ryan, spineless moron.

The "freedom" that the Republicans are trying to bring? It's oppression, the opposite of freedom. Yeah, you might not like that your tax revenue is going to pay for an unemployed woman in the Ozarks so she can not die from a horrible illness, but that tax revenue isn't infringing on your freedom any, and it's massively increasing hers. She now has the freedom to live her life the way she wants to, instead of dying in horrible agonizing pain.

Or do you think that people should die in agony just so your taxes are slightly lower? Because it doesn't matter how you justify it, that's what repealing the ACA will do.

Note, the "you" here is just hypothetical. I'm not referring to anyone specific.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:04:26 PM by Zendervai

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#175717: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:03:14 PM

Because Paul Ryan is a Rand-worshipping objectivist.

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175718: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:06:25 PM

Here's an even better quote: "Americans will always do the right thing, after all other options have been exhausted."

But at least we finally do end up doing the right thing. Or trying to. Most of the time.

The basic problem is that the American working class sees this huge expensive government spending a lot of money trying to do nice things for everyone else but them. How accurate this perception is can be questioned, but from their point of view, the purpose of the American gov't is first of all to promote their interests (to what extent them includes minorities can also be argued). Being nice to the rest of the world is a secondary priority.

So to persuade a number of Trump voters to vote for a more progressive candidate next time, they have to be reassured that their interests as Americans will be protected, even while America pursues a progressive foreign policy.

I think that can be done.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:07:34 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#175719: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:16:07 PM

The key obstacle is that the reactionary forces that drive the Republican Party don't want the lives of their own constituents improved by the Democrats. Allowing that to happen might steal their loyalty away, which is based to a large extent on the idea that Democrats use Big Government to take from them and give to "others".

Key to Republican ideology is the belief that government always reduces freedom.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:17:21 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#175720: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:16:11 PM

Rep. Peter King (R-NY) won't do Town Halls because 'screaming sessions' 'diminish democracy'.

The realistic Translation: his number is coming, and he knows it, so he might as well avoid his constituency (of all political colors) in order to screw them over before he's voted out in 2018.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:16:33 PM by DingoWalley1

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#175721: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:18:48 PM

@Fighteer: Yes, you are right about that, but one reason so many of them voted for Trump in the first place is because they are finally realizing that the Republican party has been lying to them. I've used that very phrase with many Trump supporters and conservatives, and so far no one has disagreed. There is an opening here, if only someone has the balls to take it.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:19:06 PM by DeMarquis

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175722: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:23:09 PM

Did Bush II really campaign on stepping back on America: World Police?

Because I'm unsure whether it's more accurate to say he lied about his intentions or that 9/11 caught everyone off guard and triggered a shift in priorities. Say what you will about his competence and the fact that Rumsfield and Cheney manipulated him, but by all accounts he took 9/11 personally and worked hard at being a leader through the aftermath. Even Obama likely recognized that: when Bin Laden was confirmed dead, Bush was the first person he called.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175723: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:23:14 PM

One of the most damning things Reagan did besides associating welfare with lazy minorities is getting rid of the Fairness Doctrine that mandated broadcasters to present controversial issues in a balanced way. He paved the way for people like Rush Limbaugh to brainwash a whole generation of people.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#175724: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:23:35 PM

[up] Reagan fucked up badly on a number of fronts, and we're still paying for it to this day.

edited 24th Feb '17 3:26:24 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#175725: Feb 24th 2017 at 3:27:04 PM

@Rationalinsanity: The two nastiest agencies, actually; in lieu of a damning piece of evidence that opens the door for the Judiciary, the NSA and CIA have the best chance by far of short-circuiting this regime without a coup or popular uprising. They are just about the only ones left with both the mandate and authority to take action, with the rest of the Alphabet agencies reporting to the Executive Branch or too narrowly focused to do much more than make noise outside their mandate.


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