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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175426: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:50:49 PM

" [T]he impression I'm getting is that people going on these tirades against the left ... as examples of why the left needs to be kept down at all costs (including presumably working with demagogues like Trump".

Well I don't begrudge the comparisons of Trump to Hitler/other Fascists, but I am critical of your using a bad historical analogy to basically call others in this thread Blackshirts.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175427: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:53:14 PM

[up] Less Blackshirts, and more people who inadvertently ended up enabling them because of short sighted partisanship.

edited 22nd Feb '17 4:57:19 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175428: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:56:17 PM

Okay then.

Still, there's no way that anyone in this thread or otherwise would be supportive of Trump and I don't think you've ever given any evidence besides your own supposition that there's any kind of push to support Trump as a way of suppressing the "herbal tea party".

Besides, honestly I think you have more common politically with Trump than any other regular contributors to this thread, which is why I find it so odd that it's something you accuse of other people.

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#175429: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:56:27 PM

The comparation with hitler or mussolini while acuarrate come as cliche a this point since everyone at some point was compared to those two, hell Obama was compared to hitler so is a tired argument a this point.

From my part, I compared Trump to Maduro,krishner and many populist in latin america since that is what really look like.

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175430: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:58:44 PM

[up][up] And why on Earth would you think that? Like seriously, are you mentally mixing me up with some other people?

As far as people in this thread never being supportive of Trump, I doubt anyone who contributes regularly would support him, but I suspect certain number of people would refuse to vote out of spite for someone like Sanders against Trump in 2020, especially if there was another contentious primary battle.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:04:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175431: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:05:16 PM

Well, I don't think you would support him, but it seems to me that his stated economic and geopolitical positions are closer to yours than those of Democrats. And you are not totally sympathetic to progressive stances on social issues, dismissing them as "identity politics". Which seems to make you more likely to be supportive than the people you call Centrists who vehemently oppose Trump on social issues and don't at agree with him on economic and geopolitical issues.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175432: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:09:27 PM

[up] Uh, what the fuck? No, I'm not dismissive of social justice issues as identity politics, I'm just cognizant of the fact that literally every political movement that ever existed and ever will exist will have a large number of cynical opportunists riding on its coattails along with unhinged and genuinely dangerous extremists; and wary of those sorts of people, though substantially less so as of late because of more pressing concerns manifesting themselves in the form of a radical right wing ideology sweeping the world.

On geopolitical issues, I do not want to start a war with China, or with Iran, nor do I want to see the EU collapse, even though I strongly suspect it will. I would prefer to see reduced tensions with Russia because that's literally the most dangerous flashpoint in the world due to the respective nuclear arsenals, but that's the full extent of points where we agree on foreign policy that I know of.

In economic terms, I would argue Trump doesn't even have stated, consistent economic goals beyond "Make America Great Again", whatever that even means, so I don't think I can agree or disagree with him because his positions are so vague and contradictory as to be completely meaningless. I don't want to see taxes slashed for the wealthy, I don't have strong feelings about Paul Ryan's proposed BAT one way or another and would absolutely oppose actual tariffs because they're a really bad way of raising tax revenue.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:28:22 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#175433: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:27:59 PM

there's not really any other option with the degree of control they have over the government currently.

Sure there is, it's called letting them hang themselves than reaping the electoral rewards come first 2018 and later 2020.

For the rest fo the argument I actually don't think Caspase is coming totally out of left field suggesting that some people here might rather stay at home then vote for Sanders against Trump in 2020. While I don't think he's right the way some people here speak about Sanders I can see how that impression could be gotten.

Also I'd remind people that Caspase does seem to focus mainly on what he thinks will happen not what he wants to happen, the two are different and if one thinks the former is the later than one could get a false impression that he supports Trump.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#175434: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:32:26 PM

[up] What irks me is that this isn't the first time Cap has compared people who don't like Sanders or his policy positions (such as myself) to Nazi collaborateurs/enablers.

edited 22nd Feb '17 7:06:05 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175435: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:35:36 PM

[up] I'm sorry if you found that offensive, but if you would seriously abstain from voting for someone like Sanders versus Trump in 2020 I don't think it's inaccurate given the dire circumstances, and that particular fear of mine (that people more towards the center may simply refuse to vote for a candidate towards the left end of the Overton Window) is what I was talking about in regards to that comparison.

Incidentally, I'm not particularly sympathetic to people on the left who refused to vote for Clinton anymore; once it became clear that Trump wasn't going to lose by 20 points, any thoughts about voting third party should have immediately been dismissed.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:37:53 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#175436: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:36:28 PM

I suspect that he didn't intend to aim the analogy at you (who simply doesn't like Sanders) but more at those who passionately hate Sanders in a way that seems greater than their hatred of Trump. I still think he's wrong but the logic is sound in some cases.

The actual Nazi colaberator analogy is a stupid one to make even if it was accurate, it's socially insensitive and puts people on the defensive and thus prevents good quality discussion.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:37:21 PM by Silasw

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#175437: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:37:08 PM

[up][up] And there you go again assuming I wouldn't vote for Sanders if he somehow actually won the primaries. I've said before on this thread that I would have voted for Sanders. I'll still be willing to vote for him in 2020 if he actually becomes the Democratic front-runner. Though if the Democratic Party can't find someone better than him...they're probably already screwed.

[up] Oh no, he was definitely aiming it at people like me. He did it last time.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:38:12 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175438: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:39:04 PM

[up] I'm not making that assumption, just saying that, unless you would refuse to vote for someone on the left end of the Overton window, that accusation doesn't apply to you.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#175439: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:40:46 PM

In economic terms, I would argue Trump doesn't even have stated, consistent economic goals beyond "Make America Great Again", whatever that even means

And that might well be what sinks him, he promised the Rust Belt states the impossible, and those voters will turn on him if he doesn't fulfill that platform. These people reliably voted for Clinton, Obama and even Kerry to some extent, they weren't among the Trump voters motivated by xenophobia or other ideology (those people are essentially write offs), and I think they could shift back once they realize Trump has conned them.

These voters are also the reason why the Democrats need to hammer away how much tax payer money Trump is blowing on vacations and other stunts.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#175440: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:41:19 PM

[up][up]What irks me is that you're insinuating that a fair amount of the people that regularly post here are like that. I can think of one person that actively dislikes Sanders and even they'd probably just hold their nose and vote for him the same way some Berners did for Hillary.

edit: I will say this though. If this Russia stuff is true then I don't think I trust Sanders to handle it appropriately. I know we should try for peace but this attack on our democracy shouldn't go unchallenged. Unfortunately I don't think he'd be willing to hold it against Russia.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:42:55 PM by Kostya

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#175441: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:43:03 PM

[up][up] Supposedly Trump has already spent one tenth of what Obama spent on vacations during his entire tenure (eight years) as POTUS. In a month.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:43:14 PM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175442: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:43:32 PM

[up][up] By a fair number I'm talking about around 2 to 3 people who worry me. I won't name names in a public thread because that'd be exceedingly rude, and none of them are around right now anyway, but I'd really be relieved to see some indication from these particular people that they don't regard the burgeoning Sanders wing of the democratic party as an ideological enemy equal to the Republicans.

[up] Jesus. How does that compare to Bush, IIRC he spent a lot of time on his Ranch.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:50:50 PM by CaptainCapsase

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#175443: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:53:29 PM

Th Bush ranch was probably cheep to secure, Trump likes to go to places that need a ton of extra security.

But yeah Trump has cost 12million already, Obama cost 97million for his entire time in office.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175444: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:57:21 PM

[up][up][up][up]What would you consider "holding it against Russia?" Say, and I'm guessing at something that seems plausible, he kept the sanctions but pulled out of Syria and maybe abandoned Ukraine to its fate?

I mean, as much as I would like to see Putin get comeuppance, he won this battle. Even if we pull down the Trumpists I wouldn't hold it against a politician were we to withdraw to the sidelines of the international stage to lick our wounds.

edited 22nd Feb '17 5:58:47 PM by Elle

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#175445: Feb 22nd 2017 at 5:59:37 PM

Continuing to pressure them with sanctions while ramping up our own cyber attacks on them and their interests would be a start.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#175446: Feb 22nd 2017 at 6:03:41 PM

Doesn't Trump go to Florida every weekend? Nothing Obama or Bush did compares to that. And his resort there is also a public business, so its a security nightmare.

And that vacation fee doesn't include the money needed to secure Trump tower.

EDIT: At this point my biggest problems with Sanders are things that he'd be constrained by Congress on (defense and trade). The only other issue is how damn old he is, he might not last four years.

edited 22nd Feb '17 6:05:58 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#175447: Feb 22nd 2017 at 6:04:38 PM

I'm pretty sure I read something saying that the costs of protecting Melania in Trump Tower are twice the annual cost of PBS.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#175448: Feb 22nd 2017 at 6:06:32 PM

Bush, for all his vacation time, wasn't jetting off to his ranch literally every weekend, nor was his wife living in an entirely different city for who knows how long, because she might just decide to stay in New York after the school year is over. The Trumps are already going to cost the US taxpayer far, far more in security alone than just about any other presidential family. Shit, aren't his other adult kids also guarded or something?

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175449: Feb 22nd 2017 at 6:07:13 PM

@Kostya: Sanctions thus far have actually improved Putin's domestic support by validating the widespread belief (not entirely baseless given various acts of dickery during the 90s) among Russians that "the west" is out to get them, and the more detached from the global economy becomes the greater the odds are that they do something really drastic and dangerous out of desperation, so I don't really see much of a point there beyond hoping the oligarchs force Putin out, which doesn't seem very likely given he's more or less crushed all meaningful resistance in that sector, and there's always the danger his successor is even worse. Demonstrating our capacity to retaliate in kind is obviously important, but the last thing we want is a cyberwar arms race that results in the internet balkanizing and everyone ending up with a walled garden ala China.

edited 22nd Feb '17 6:09:06 PM by CaptainCapsase

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175450: Feb 22nd 2017 at 6:09:11 PM

Having some idea of just how serious a real cyber war could get (attacks on civilian infrastructure, for instance) I think heading the repeated calls that we need to shore up our vulnerable systems would be very important before we get too aggressive on that front.


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