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MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175401: Feb 22nd 2017 at 1:50:47 PM

The Sanders wing of the party is just an easy way to say the progressive wing of the party.

As of the last congress, the progressive wing has 4 senators in Bernie Sanders, Paul Wellstone, Sherrie Brown and Elizabeth Warren and 74 seats in the House.

In comparison, 46 of the seats in Congress belong to the official centrist-Dems/New Dems. Currently, 5 senators were part of the now defunct New Dem Senate Coalition. Obama is a self-described New Dem.

Blue Dog Democrats aka Conservative Democrats have one sentate leader in Joe Machin and 13 seats in the House.

Then there's the Libertarian Democrats. Senator Cory Booker is one and then there's Senator Ron Wyden of Oregon.

And then there's the rest which are called the liberal Democrats who are very socially liberal but take a varied stance on economic issues.

This is all from the last Congress btw. I'm not sure what the current make up is now.

edited 22nd Feb '17 1:51:26 PM by MadSkillz

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#175402: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:02:31 PM

Sanders is not a member of the party, and trying to claim there are only four progressives in the whole Democratic Senate is disingenuous at best. Care to back up those claims with actual voting records?

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175403: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:15:30 PM

I believe he's talking about how the various democratic politicians self-identify, which is to say who they caucus with.

AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#175404: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:23:19 PM

[up]That argument might fly if they weren't identifying the New Dems as centrist and otherwise trying to list the political views of each caucus.

In comparison, 46 of the seats in Congress belong to the official centrist-Dems/New Dems.

That's a statement on their politics.

And then there's the rest which are called the liberal Democrats who are very socially liberal but take a varied stance on economic issues.

So is this

edited 22nd Feb '17 2:24:35 PM by AmbarSonofDeshar

SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#175405: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:26:04 PM

And....?

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175406: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:37:05 PM

I beieve that only the Progressive Caucus is an actual thing (note- I believe most if not all of its members supporting Clinton in the primaries- correct me if I'm wrong here). The other ones are to varying extents Mad Skillz arbitrarily grouping certain Democrats together.

Like the term Blue Dog is accurate for the named members, but the designation of Booker as a Libertarian Democrat is new to me, and I have no idea how it differs from what Mad Skillz calls Liberal Democrats.

One terminology issue I note with Mad Skillz and Capcase's post is that people who call themselves Liberal Democrats tend to also label themselves as progressives. The people who "hate the party" may also call themselves progressives, but are not the same group as the "Progressive Caucus". I think they'd be more accurately called Leftists or Democratic Socialists.

Perian Since: Jun, 2016
#175407: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:43:33 PM

Perez is 100% fine from a policy perspective (he was the preferred Clinton VP pick for many people who supported Sanders in the primaries anyway). The big issue is that he is a bad fit for the job: why should a man with next to no electoral experience be qualified to lead the DNC? Even some of his fellow Democrats say that he's a ridiculous choice.

Combining this with the fact that there was already a candidate in the race who was extremely qualified (Ellison), who has widespread 'establishment' support (not only John Lewis, but also Chuck Schumer, Harry Reid, Gloria Steinem, even Perez's predecessor Hilda Solis chose him over Perez!), and that it is pretty much confirmed that Perez only entered the race because the Obama wing wasn't willing to see a 'Sanders democrat' lead the DNC - talking about purity tests - it is pretty much understandable that the Sanders wing would see Perez's election as a giant middle finger to them. So it's rather hypocritical for the Clinton/Obama side to complain that this has become a proxy war, when they actually started it.

Also, Perez has been up to some very divisive tactics during the primaries - casting Sanders as a candidate of whites, see the BernieBro myth - I'd rather not see a person who has been pitting racial groups against each other as DNC chair.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175408: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:46:44 PM

New Democrat Coalition is a thing. Libertarian Dems don't have a very formal orginization but some of them do belong to the Democratic Freedom Caucus. The so called liberal dems are those without a formal association that fits any of those groups, I gather. There might be people Abar would say are progressives in that group but it takes a lot longer to search voting records than point at names on a self-identified list.

edited 22nd Feb '17 2:49:11 PM by Elle

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175409: Feb 22nd 2017 at 2:59:35 PM

Huh. Did not know that. Also kind of surprised to learn that Booker identifies himself as a Libertarian.

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175410: Feb 22nd 2017 at 3:05:48 PM

Also, as I poke further, not all self-described New Dems (like Obama) are part of the caucus. [1].

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175411: Feb 22nd 2017 at 3:32:07 PM

Sanders is not a member of the party, and trying to claim there are only four progressives in the whole Democratic Senate is disingenuous at best. Care to back up those claims with actual voting records?

I said as of the 114th Congress which is the last one when Sanders did identify as a Democrat. Also I'm basing this off of Wikipedia. If there's anymore that I'm missing out then cool. But officially Sanders was the only official progressive Democrat senator in the 114th Congress. I added the other 3 because apparently people describe them as progressive too according to Wikipedia.

That argument might fly if they weren't identifying the New Dems as centrist and otherwise trying to list the political views of each caucus.

That's what they describe themselves as. Another name for them is Clintonian Democrats/Third Way Democrats. They're an official group.

Ideologies: Fiscally conservative, culturally liberal, centrism, Third Way

So is this

I'm just regurgitating what I'm reading. That's what it says the liberal wing is.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175412: Feb 22nd 2017 at 3:33:11 PM

@Elle Well Obama wouldn't be since he's not in politics anymore and he was president before that.

MadSkillz Destroyer of Worlds Since: Mar, 2013 Relationship Status: I only want you gone
Destroyer of Worlds
#175413: Feb 22nd 2017 at 3:35:11 PM

I beieve that only the Progressive Caucus is an actual thing (note- I believe most if not all of its members supporting Clinton in the primaries- correct me if I'm wrong here). The other ones are to varying extents Mad Skillz arbitrarily grouping certain Democrats together. Like the term Blue Dog is accurate for the named members, but the designation of Booker as a Libertarian Democrat is new to me, and I have no idea how it differs from what Mad Skillz calls Liberal Democrats. One terminology issue I note with Mad Skillz and Capcase's post is that people who call themselves Liberal Democrats tend to also label themselves as progressives. The people who "hate the party" may also call themselves progressives, but are not the same group as the "Progressive Caucus". I think they'd be more accurately called Leftists or Democratic Socialists.

Here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factions_in_the_Democratic_Party_(United_States)

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#175414: Feb 22nd 2017 at 3:43:15 PM

...yeah, I'll be sticking to On The Issues instead of trying to guess which bloc people belong to.

And I'd say that the progressive wing of the Democrats is very different from the Sanders wing - the latter is merely composed of people bearing the stamp of approval of TYT's messiah, actual policy stances and voting history be damned.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#175415: Feb 22nd 2017 at 3:49:52 PM

casting Sanders as a candidate of whites, see the Bernie Bro myth

I'll be sure to tell the lunatics who mobbed my Facebook feed and the comments of every Daily Banter article all about how they're a myth. As someone joked at the time—every time you mention the Bernie Bros, fifty people who perfectly fit the profile show up to loudly and nastily explain to you that they don't exist.

The ability of commentators like this to ignore the existence of most of the crazed Internet left is rather staggering.

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#175416: Feb 22nd 2017 at 3:53:37 PM

The myth is that they're actually attached to Sanders as opposed to simply being people who hate Clinton and temporarily thought Sanders could be a vehicle of that hatred.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175417: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:11:48 PM

[up][up] And when someone goes on (apparently) a rant about how all white people deserve to die or men should just commit suicide, they're just an idiot on the internet?

I'm all for taking extremists in our own camp seriously, but you don't get to choose which batch of extremists are taken seriously and which are regarded as a joke right up until they're running the party ala Trump.

Krieger22 Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018 from Malaysia Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: I'm in love with my car
Causing freakouts over sourcing since 2018
#175418: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:15:31 PM

[up]If that was supposed to be a dodge, not using something that could be copied from the Political Revolution subreddit verbatim might help.

I have disagreed with her a lot, but comparing her to republicans and propagandists of dictatorships is really low. - An idiot
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#175419: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:19:00 PM

I'm sure they exist, I'm skeptical of their relevance. They are loud and annoying but it's hard to say how numerous they actually are.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175420: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:23:06 PM

[up][up] That wasn't a dodge, that was a statement: the impression I'm getting is that people going on these tirades against the left and holding up "all those people on the internet/this guy who knows a guy who I'm facebook friends with" as examples of why the left needs to be kept down at all costs (including presumably working with demagogues like Trump, which worked wonderfully for the German center) are being quite selective in their reading of internet nonsense to further their own agenda; if you're looking for someone crazy or militant in a particular political/social movement, you'll find them in abundance if you're trying hard enough.

edited 22nd Feb '17 4:31:03 PM by CaptainCapsase

unknowing from somewhere.. Since: Mar, 2014
#175421: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:32:46 PM

You know, the more I see the Alt right, the more they remind me of quote from the joker:

"I dont have plans, im just a dog chasing car...I will never enought what to do if I get one"

when they said shit for the sake of said it, it show they dont care about anything except the fact they can do stuff, just....that. "I have a thing to said and I said it, fuck everyone"

"My Name is Bolt, Bolt Crank and I dont care if you believe or not"
Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175422: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:38:21 PM

[up][up]

You've got to stop that accusation of people working for Trump/wanting their representatives to work with Trump, especially because you yourself keep advocating working with him. Everyone in the Democratic Party rightly hates Trump, and if anyone was going to work with him, it would presumably be Leftists, who share more of his stated economic positions- although they are also unlikely to work with him, either, since generally/hopefully, opposing authoritarianism takes preference over trade policy.

And besides being super-offensive, your Nazi comparison is also an example of your accusing others of something you/your side is doing, since the Leftists of that time indirectly helped Hitler by being in violent opposition to the center Left.

edited 22nd Feb '17 4:39:40 PM by Hodor2

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175423: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:42:05 PM

[up] I'm not calling to work with Trump unless he's actually offering reasonable compromises, which sounds unlikely, I was talking about going around Trump and trying to peel away congressional Republicans and look for common ground, because there's not really any other option with the degree of control they have over the government currently. As for the other point, I'm trying to point out in a roundabout fashion that some people seem more concerned with preventing the center from becoming a junior partner to the left in the democratic party than they are with preventing the GOP from running wild/

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#175424: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:43:29 PM

Then maybe say that and avoid the ad hominem/Nazi comparisons?

Also, if you meant that Democrats would court anti-Trump Republicans, why did you say that Democrats would want to work with Trump?

edited 22nd Feb '17 4:44:25 PM by Hodor2

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#175425: Feb 22nd 2017 at 4:47:56 PM

[up] I didn't say democrats would work with Trump, I'm saying that some people in the centrist constituency clearly seem more concerned with stopping the "herbal tea party" than they are with stopping Trump. Now, fortunately, that's seemingly not a pervasive sentiment, nor has it really have picked up any real steam among elected officials, because that could spell real trouble if it were. As far as calling the Nazi comparison offensive, it's too late to close that door given everyone and their mother in the center and on the left already compares Trump to Hitler and/or Mussolini.

edited 22nd Feb '17 4:49:23 PM by CaptainCapsase


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