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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#174826: Feb 17th 2017 at 1:57:14 PM

It's an interesting point on the benchmark. Those ranked below Harrison I presume might have left the country in better shape if they had given one speech and then died in bed.

[up]I'm guessing Smoky means the initial sweeping-under-the-rug of the AIDS epidemic but it's an unusual opinion if that's the case.

edited 17th Feb '17 2:00:20 PM by Elle

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#174827: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:00:08 PM

[up][up] Doing very little to combat the AIDS epidemic. Without evidence to suggest the intent was to exterminate homosexuals, such conduct would be better termed as "crimes against humanity", rather than specifically genocide.

edited 17th Feb '17 2:02:01 PM by CaptainCapsase

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#174828: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:00:11 PM

@Smokey, I assume you are referring to Reagan's (and society in general) ignoring the HIV/AIDS crisis?

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#174829: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:01:20 PM

That's what I thought was being referred to as well.

Oh God! Natural light!
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#174830: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:02:24 PM

Yes. They were made aware of it and yet they did nothing to help, solely because it was seen as a "gay disease". Once straight people and children began to get it, they finally gave a damn. Thousands of people died while nobody cared, and Reagan could have helped. Instead, it took us until the 2000s to finally make an impact against it.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#174831: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:02:52 PM

I get it now. Guilt by omission.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#174832: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:04:57 PM

[up][up] Which is by defenition not genocide. An atrocity yes, but genocide has a specific meaning.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#174833: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:05:53 PM

Can we still not use the word that's meant to represent someone deciding to go out and straight up murder everyone of a specific population group?

I don't mean to say what Reagan did was not all sorts of shit, but its not genocide unless he started to actively infect every LBGT person in the US with it and I think this sort of Term Creep just ends up mushing everything down.

"You can reply to this Message!"
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#174834: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:06:45 PM

How much more can we blame Regan for that though than we do for Washington and several of his successors being slave owners? Just from a dis passionate view, even adknowledging it was a bad thing, was it just a thing that was a product of his time? Would anyone else in his position at the time have done better? (I'd like to think that if the same thing happened today there would be much more pushback.)

edited 17th Feb '17 2:09:05 PM by Elle

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#174835: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:07:51 PM

Reagan's too high on that list for a host of reasons. He played a dangerous gamble during the Cold War, look up what nearly happened during Able Archer 83.

[up]Most of civil society, around the world, ignored the HIV crisis for years. He played a major role, but I doubt that many others (even someone like Carter) would have done any better. However, he was in power in real life, so he takes the blame (along with a host of other major players at the time).

edited 17th Feb '17 2:09:46 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#174836: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:08:35 PM

Speaking of HIV and genocide, which President was it that had a bunch of African-Americans infected without their knowledge to study the effects?

edited 17th Feb '17 2:09:43 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
smokeycut Since: Mar, 2013
#174837: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:09:17 PM

Except that's exactly what it was. He knew that LGBT people were getting sick, and he did nothing because of who was dying. When you have the ability to save someone, but choose to let them die, you are at fault for their death. At the very least, he was a willing accomplice in the deaths of thousands of LGBT people.

Fighteer Lost in Space from The Time Vortex (Time Abyss) Relationship Status: TV Tropes ruined my love life
Lost in Space
#174838: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:09:28 PM

That starts us down a very complex and thorny path about hindsight applying to moral and ethical choices. There's a philosophical debate to be had (one that's been going on for a long time), but not in this topic.

We consider the neglect surrounding the HIV epidemic to be an atrocity, but it definitely wasn't an intentional act of murder (in most cases).

edited 17th Feb '17 2:09:48 PM by Fighteer

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#174839: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:10:32 PM

[up][up][up]Wasn't that syphilis?

I believe you are thinking about this case: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_syphilis_experiment

[down].[down][down][nja]

edited 17th Feb '17 2:12:04 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#174840: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:11:10 PM

[up]x4 Are you thinking of the Tuskegee experiments? That was syphilis, not HIV, and it went on for 40 years, from 1932 to 1972. (Ethics in medical experiments are relatively recent developments.)

edited 17th Feb '17 2:12:51 PM by Elle

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#174841: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:11:19 PM

Reagan also holds the distinguished honor of once telling a joke so bad it nearly ended the world.

The Cold War nearly went hot after audio from a sound check was made public, in which Reagan joked, "My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to tell you today that I've signed legislation that will outlaw Russia forever. We begin bombing in five minutes."

EDIT: Yes, I was thinking of Tuskegee.

edited 17th Feb '17 2:11:37 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#174842: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:16:30 PM

Kennedy's rated so high because Jackie O and Ted Kennedy spent forty-five years creating a cult of personality around him. The guy himself was okayish, just not the hero he's portrayed as. Also, Americans like to see themselves in him because he was young, stylish, and inspiring, but the actual record of his presidency, because it was never completely realized, factors very little in his characterization.

As far as Kennedys go, as a Bay Stater, I prefer Ted, as a progressive, I prefer Bobby.

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Elle Since: Jan, 2001
#174843: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:19:12 PM

I've heard the theory that Regan, as an actor, would have known perfectly well the mic was hot and did it intentionally to freak the Russians out. Dunno how accurate it is. (The person I heard it from was enlisted in air force at the time.)

edited 17th Feb '17 2:19:57 PM by Elle

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#174844: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:20:00 PM

The only things I really know about JFK are that he had a thing with Marilyn Monroe and, depending on who you ask, he was either assassinated by a magic bullet or a Time Lord.

I've heard more conspiracy theories on JFK than I've heard actual facts about his Presidency.

[up] That would be incredibly stupid. Like, worse than Trump stupid. As a general rule, when somebody is pointing a gun at you, it is not considered good form to surprise them.

edited 17th Feb '17 2:21:37 PM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
theLibrarian Since: Jul, 2009
#174845: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:46:24 PM

It did cause the Russian military to go to red alert for a little while, so I'm pretty sure he did eventually say "Oh jeez, that was a bad idea."

I'm also not surprised that people like Einsenhower and Jackson have been taken down a few pegs. Jackson especially; the man was basically Early 1800s Trump, but from a commoner background instead of from money. Only this time Trump can't just disregard a Supreme Court ruling out of racism. He can try, but it'll likely mean the end of his presidency.

ViperMagnum357 Since: Mar, 2012
#174846: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:55:11 PM

[up]Eisenhower seems to have improved in the public consciousness; likely a result of being the last 'real' Republican in the same strain as Lincoln. After him, Goldwater's loss caused the inversion of the GOP seen today, first as a means to an end by Nixon, then into the hands of idealogues. In that respect, Eisenhower was perhaps The Last of His Kind, and whatever his faults left the country bereft of stable political parties.

Protagonist506 from Oregon Since: Dec, 2013 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
#174847: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:56:07 PM

IIRC the public (and Russia) didn't hear that joke for a while and it didn't cause any change in DEFCON levels. It was in poor taste but didn't threaten the world.

Leviticus 19:34
KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Since: Mar, 2012 Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
#174848: Feb 17th 2017 at 2:56:34 PM

[up][up][up] Eisenhower? He's gone up, actually. You sure you aren't thinking of Wilson?

[nja]

edited 17th Feb '17 3:00:10 PM by KarkatTheDalek

Oh God! Natural light!
DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#174849: Feb 17th 2017 at 3:35:55 PM

House Committee launches Bi-Partisan Investigation over whether Flynn received improper payments from Russia. Specifically for his Russian Television appearances.

This might actually get Flynn into jail. Either this, or nothing will (until at least 2018).

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#174850: Feb 17th 2017 at 3:43:49 PM

My issues with Reagan and the Cold War aren't his quip, its his overall policy of provoking the Soviets. We got very close to WW3 during Able Archer 83, and that's only the biggest incident. Now, Moscow also had its own issues, this is true. But Reagan gambled the continuity of human civilization on a geopolitical bet, and while he won that wasn't a sure thing.

edited 17th Feb '17 3:47:02 PM by Rationalinsanity

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

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