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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#173926: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:20:07 PM

You realize that the gerrymandered version doesn't currently exist, right? The GOP is trying to implement it in some states, but it doesn't actually work that way anywhere right now. Going from the current "winner of popular state vote takes state's entire electoral college vote" system to a "state's entire electoral college vote goes to winner of national popular vote" isn't something that any given state legislature is likely to do, but it could definitely be done via ballot initiative or the like.
Actually, the gerrymandered version is exactly the case in two states, and I live in one of them, and the other is Maine. After Obama got the one EV for NE-2, the state senate tacked a bunch of rural Sarpy County onto NE-2 (mostly urban Douglas County) to keep left-leaning Omaha voters from giving any EVs to Democrats in the future.

Also, it's funny that you say that a legislature is unlikely to switch to "national popular vote winner gets all the state electoral votes" when a compact that would do exactly that contingent upon getting 50%+1 of electoral votes on-board has been adopted by states adding up to 30% of the Electoral College and is pending in states adding up to about 10% more.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173927: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:21:27 PM

[up][up] It hasn't, but it's a general rule among the centrist parties in Germany (to my understanding) that red-red-green can never be allowed to happen, ever. Which may lead to some very serious drama if it starts looking like it's a possibility.

A center-right, center, center-left coalition (which would be our version of a stoplight coalition) isn't going to work in America, and I suspect it won't work for much longer in Germany if the EU starts collapsing in earnest and there's no longer enough "treasure" to pacify all the major interests behind the parties involved.

edited 11th Feb '17 12:30:23 PM by CaptainCapsase

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#173928: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:26:10 PM

@Cap: I was under the impression that at least some of the failure of other presidential systems is because they're mostly found in the New World and we have a long history of overthrowing Latin American governments and installing dictators out of political convenience and/or CIA boredom.

Also, save for the top executive office, there's no real reason a presidential system needs to be associated with FPTP (or parliamentary with proportional voting - after all, many well-known parliamentary governments use FPTP districts instead). A presidential system can have a proportionally elected legislature just as easily as it can have easily gerrymanderable districts with FPTP voting.

LinkToTheFuture A real bad hombre from somewhere completely different Since: Apr, 2015 Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
A real bad hombre
#173929: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:27:52 PM

I think the legislature should be proportional (to some extent) and the President should use some kind of ranked choice system.

"I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work." -Thomas Edison
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173930: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:28:07 PM

[up][up] Yes, but when it comes to the top level office, only one person can hold it, and that makes non FPTP systems somewhat dicey; say there's 5 candidates running, and someone gets in with only 15% of the vote? That's not a strong popular mandate. You can mitigate that by doing multiple rounds of voting (or instant runoff systems like ranked choice which can be gamed and which are comparatively complicated), which is what France does, but France's system is already semi-presidential rather than a fully presidential or parliamentary system.

edited 11th Feb '17 12:29:40 PM by CaptainCapsase

Balmung Since: Oct, 2011
#173931: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:34:56 PM

Well, first, in that case, it sure is nice that the executive doen't actually hold all the power (at least on paper, but we are currently in the process of testing that in practice right now), so an unpopular winner can't just rule by fiat (again, in theory, and we're testing the practice right now).

Though I would very much prefer that we eliminated the Electoral College (a non-necessary and grossly detrimental compoment in our presidential system) and used two-round voting like France (does not mandate semi-presidential/semi-parliamentary government) or some manner of ranked-choice voting.

Independent of the parliamentary/presidential issue, our election system is almost as poorly designed as it could possibly have been. If they didn't also own slaves, I'd probably consider our electoral system to be the Founding Fathers' Dethroning Moment Of Suck.

edited 11th Feb '17 12:37:02 PM by Balmung

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173932: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:38:16 PM

[up] It was a necessary compromise to get the states to agree to it. It also wasn't intended to be a democracy, it was intended to be a particular sort of pseudo-aristocracy.

edited 11th Feb '17 12:38:43 PM by CaptainCapsase

tricksterson Never Trust from Behind you with an icepick Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Never Trust
#173933: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:54:39 PM

@Tobias Drake: Basically an All American version of Axis Powers Hetalia?

Trump delenda est
IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#173934: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:55:33 PM

" Yes, but when it comes to the top level office, only one person can hold it, and that makes non FPTP systems somewhat dicey; say there's 5 candidates running, and someone gets in with only 15% of the vote? That's not a strong popular mandate."

In Argentina we do a second round. These are the rules for one here:

  • No candidate gets over 40% of the vote means second round between top 2.
  • If the top candidate gets between 40% and 45%, and the second gets within 10% of the first, there's a runoff.
  • If the top candidate gets over 45% they're president and that's it.

Altough personally I'd prefer if we had a proportional parliament with M Ps apportioned by provincial population (or the Council Democracy system we talked about in the Constitution thread), because the presidential race tends to distort politics too much.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173935: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:57:18 PM

[up] Yeah, that's another issue with presidential systems; it tends to distract from local level politics over the contest for the top office.

3of4 Just a harmless giant from a foreign land. from Five Seconds in the Future. Since: Jan, 2010 Relationship Status: GAR for Archer
Just a harmless giant from a foreign land.
#173936: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:08:59 PM

@Caps, the issue is more that the current Left party is the fusion of the old one (ie the successor of the SED) and a splitoff of the SPD during a penis-length contest between Oskar Lafontaine and Gerhardt Schröder.

The SPD is still miffed about that. And as a result the Left on the federal level is a weird mix out of people who thirty years ago would have run the GDR by way of party membership and the SPD's equivalent of Never Hillary Democrats

That and the Left party having such fun idea's as complaining that the new SPD Chancellor candidate does not immediately and instantly vow to never go into a Cabinet under Merkel (which would only really favor the Left party).

In short, the SPD (and the Greens) don't trust the Left Party to have their back in a coalition or be willing to be a team-player. Rather, the Left would be more liable to put their issues front and drag their partners (and remember, they'd be a junior partner in any coalition) into them with no concern. And since we've seen what tail-wags-dog inter-coalition crap can be with Seehofer and the CDU...Its understandably that Red-Red-Green is not exactly making them feel warm and fuzzy.

"You can reply to this Message!"
NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#173937: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:43:45 PM

Reporters kept in room with black plastic covering windows while at Trump golf course

Reporters who are supposed to keep an eye on President Trump couldn't see him Saturday morning.

White House reporters tasked with covering Trump tweeted they were holed up in a clubhouse basement of the luxurious Trump National Jupiter Golf Club & Spa.

That wouldn’t be so bad if the windows and doors weren’t covered with black plastic, blocking all views of the outside world, including Trump and Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe on the golf course.

“Trump's press corps has been placed in a basement suite at Jupiter golf club," tweeted Jennifer Jacobs, a White House reporter for Bloomberg. “Black plastic over windows to give Trump privacy as he golfs"

DingoWalley1 Asgore Adopts Noelle Since: Feb, 2014 Relationship Status: Can't buy me love
Asgore Adopts Noelle
#173938: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:48:08 PM

[up] Dear God that's scary. That sounds like something straight out of Stalinist Russia.sad

Medinoc from France (Before Recorded History)
#173939: Feb 11th 2017 at 2:19:20 PM

French presidential candidate Emmanuel Macron tweets a video message to US scientists, welcoming them to France.

Hello to everyone. This is a message for American researchers, entrepreneurs, engineers working on climate change. Last Saturday, I invited you to come to France and join European and French researchers to work on climate change here. Because here, you are welcome. I do know how your new president now has decided to jeopardize your budget, your initiatives, as he is extremely skeptical about climate change. I have no doubt about climate change and how committed we have to be regarding this issue.

So I have two messages. The very first one, for the French, and European researchers, we will preserve our budgets, we will reinforce our investment, our public and private investment, in order to do more, and accelerate our initiative in order to deliver in line with COP 21. And second, a message for you guys. Please, come to France, you are welcome, it's your nation, we like innovation. We want innovative people. We want people working on climate change, energy, renewables and new technologies. France is your nation. Thanks.

"And as long as a sack of shit is not a good thing to be, chivalry will never die."
sgamer82 Since: Jan, 2001
#173940: Feb 11th 2017 at 2:20:57 PM

From The Late Show with Stephen Colbert Twitter

Before you go to sleep, remember, it’s your civic duty to make sure @realdonaldtrump knows that this little girl has #LargerHands. #LSSC https://t.co/gryHPDduKi

Also:
http://thehill.com/blogs/in-the-know/in-the-know/319076-newspaper-uses-photo-of-alec-baldwin-on-snl-instead-of-trump

Dominican newspaper El Nacional on Friday printed a photo of Alec Baldwin doing his impression of President Trump on "Saturday Night Live" in an article about Trump and Israel.

The photo was used side-by-side with a photo of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. It was not immediately clear whether the image of Baldwin was accidental or an intentional joke.

Social media users found it funny either way.

edited 11th Feb '17 2:25:03 PM by sgamer82

Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#173941: Feb 11th 2017 at 2:22:18 PM

[up][up][up] Lets not go that far. In Stalinist Russia they'd probably be forced under threat of execution to run a story saying that Trump shot 18 holes-in-one.

...come to think of it, was there no room that just doesn't have a clear view of the golf course? If there is they could of just put the press in their and no one would of been able to say something was off without sounding crazy. By putting black plastic over the windows they make it plainly obvious that the press aren't supposed to see something, even if that "something" is just Trump being really bad at golf.

edited 11th Feb '17 2:23:14 PM by Falrinn

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173942: Feb 11th 2017 at 2:25:44 PM

[up] Golf is reputably one of the few things Trump is actually good at. Like not professional level despite his own opinion of himself, but good enough to brag about. Which makes it kind of odd he's not making a bigger point of showing off.

NoName999 Since: May, 2011
#173943: Feb 11th 2017 at 2:28:08 PM

Guess he didn't want people to realize how fat he really is when he's not wearing suits.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#173944: Feb 11th 2017 at 3:53:39 PM

Or risk the off chance of Abe beating him.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#173945: Feb 11th 2017 at 3:56:23 PM

[up][up]

Odds are it's because of how many times he took the piss out of Obama for hitting the links, which makes him a Grade-A hypocrite for doing so himself.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#173946: Feb 11th 2017 at 4:06:40 PM

He's already developed a habit of trying to dodge his press corps, remember? Before taking office he snuck out of Trump Tower to go have dinner with his family at his favorite restaurant.

CenturyEye Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign? from I don't know where the Yith sent me this time... Since: Jan, 2017 Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
#173947: Feb 11th 2017 at 4:34:07 PM

Please, come to France, you are welcome, it's your nation, we like innovation. We want innovative people. We want people working on climate change, energy, renewables and new technologies. France is your nation. Thanks.
The buzzards are circling already? I'd say et tu, but Canada arguably started it. I know the US looks terminal but even GA is responding...Georgia demonstrators demand GOP hold town hall meetings

Georgia demonstrators turned a low-profile event with junior congressional staffers into a stand against Donald Trump’s policies. Now they’re demanding a chance to vent to the lawmakers in-person at a town hall meeting.
“We are the people who really need help,” said Janel Green, an organizer of the Georgia Alliance for Social Justice, one of the groups spearheading the demonstrations. “We have no voice, no representation in the Senate as our senators refuse to hear our concerns.”

With no town hall meetings yet scheduled in Georgia, critics of the president’s policies targeted an event held Friday led by aides to three GOP lawmakers in the east Georgia town of Greensboro as a chance to make a statement. The event was organized by the offices of Perdue, Sen. Johnny Isakson and Rep. Jody Hice.
The staffers to the three politicians were clearly caught off guard by the size and organization of the protesters, and briefly walked out of the room to chants of “Shame!” A Hice staffer later returned with pen and paper in hand, jotting down notes as more than a dozen speakers railed against Trump’s policies and urged Georgia Republicans to defy him.

“If organized groups want to manufacture protests and continue to be disruptive,” [Perdue’s spokeswoman, Caroline Vanvick said] said, “it will only deny those who really need help.”
The lawmakers’ deputies told protesters Friday the event was never intended to be a “town hall” and that they wouldn’t answer questions, leading to a cascade of boos....But several organizers on Friday and Saturday circulated a press release from Isakson’s office earlier this month describing it as a chance for constituents to talk to his aides about “any issues concerning the federal government, federal legislation or federal agencies.”

edited 11th Feb '17 4:44:04 PM by CenturyEye

Look with century eyes... With our backs to the arch And the wreck of our kind We will stare straight ahead For the rest of our lives
AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#173948: Feb 11th 2017 at 4:52:01 PM

Well, if they don't want to hold town halls the determined protesters will just show up at their offices and anywhere else they go. Running away does them no favors in this situation. Hell, if they actually hold these things they might even sway some to their side.

Rationalinsanity from Halifax, Canada Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
#173949: Feb 11th 2017 at 4:52:42 PM

American scientists are among the best in the world. If Trump won't use them/hobbles them, they might as well do good elsewhere (if only for a while).

Also on the topic of Americans running for the hills, Cape Breton University, a Canadian school that generally gets less than 10 American students a year, has gotten hundreds of applications from the states.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/cape-breton-university-donald-trump-american-students-1.3976879

I wonder if someone should warn them that Cape Breton is basically Canada's armpit...

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.
Zendervai Since: Oct, 2009
#173950: Feb 11th 2017 at 5:16:03 PM

Cape Breton may have started it. Last year they made an ad (possibly joking) inviting Americans to move there. It may have gotten them some attention from these people.

And Cape Breton is mostly just kind of poor and overlooked. Nova Scotia is overall pretty nice. Least it isn't people trying to move to Newfoundland for the farming.

Newfoundland is called the Rock for a reason. It's also freezing most of the year.

edited 11th Feb '17 5:20:04 PM by Zendervai


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