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Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#173851: Feb 10th 2017 at 11:46:00 PM

[up][up] We're on the side of democracy and freedom itself, and we'll ensure our total support!

Also, I was also (Albeit a bit stubbornly) a motivational booster to many of the persons who were also stating: "He'll send troops and we're all finished because it's what dictators do." while me and some other rebuked their claims of it.

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
Draghinazzo (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
#173852: Feb 10th 2017 at 11:51:51 PM

[up][up] I only wish the GOP were more like him. The only god they care about is Mammon, and any pretensions at Christianity are just an excuse to hate people different from them.

Tuckerscreator (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Imca (Veteran)
#173854: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:04:15 AM

The problem is that rual areas should be draged around by metro areas any way,

Metro areas A) Have way more people. and B) Have way more diversity

Rural areas are home to shity education and even shittier ideas, if you look at where the racisim and stuff lies, it is still heavily weighted twords rual areas.

Besides, even if you won the 10 most populous cities in the US, without a single disenter in any of them, you have won 1/6th of the votes you would need to have a guaranteed election.

Yet to win by the electoral collage, you just need the population of dalas texas voting for you if they are stratigicly placed.

BearyScary Since: Sep, 2010 Relationship Status: You spin me right round, baby
AmbarSonofDeshar Since: Jan, 2010
#173856: Feb 11th 2017 at 12:20:48 AM

I don't get how Clinton was supposed to be a warmonger?

She wasn't. That was a dishonest meme spread around by some of the far-left and most on the alt-right. The latter typically claimed she was going to start WWIII with the Russians because she wanted a no-fly zone over Syria; on several occasions people popped into the thread to repeat that accusation, then immediately left (said accusation was typically voiced as a variant on one of "Is it true Clinton wants a war with Russia?" or "I hope Clinton does not win/am glad she did not win because she wants a war with Russia"). I also saw it repeated ad nauseum by people in my Facebook feed because apparently if you say it often enough it becomes the truth.

You'd think the USA had never shot down/threatened to shoot down a Russian plane before.

edited 11th Feb '17 12:21:01 AM by AmbarSonofDeshar

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#173857: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:01:33 AM

@Imca: Thanks to the EC, Dallas's blue vote (because there are lot of blue voters in Texas, and like other states they're concentrated in the cities) are outweighed by the rural areas' red vote because Texas, like forty seven other states, is a winner take all state.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#173858: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:05:40 AM

Having more people doesn't mean your consensus is more correct tho. Sometimes unpopular measures are necessary.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#173859: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:14:56 AM

What in the world does that have to do with whether or not the EC is worth keeping as part of our voting process? Voting for president isn't a "measure" or some leader taking an action because they believe it has a benefit despite unpopularity. Voting for president determines the direction the country takes; the majority should absolutely rule in this case. Anyone complaining about representation can be pointed to the equally important Congress, which has two houses with seats arranged in such a way as to address that issue.

Imca (Veteran)
#173860: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:16:49 AM

[up][up][up] Oh I very much know, I wasn't saying Dallas itself was useful under the current system, just giving a scale for how many people you need to win under the electoral collage and why it is so fucked up.

[up][up] The problem is the rual areas dont just lead in on popular ideas, they lead in racisim and sexisim and just general backwards ideas due to poor education and lack of diveristy.

This is..... very universal.

Trying to pretend all ideas are equaly valid is dangerous, because ideas like race/religion x is better then race y or that sex/uality y is better then sex/uality z are not so. :/

[up] That is true as well, since it is a representative democracy, there is an arbiter there to make unpopular decisions if they are necicery.

edited 11th Feb '17 1:18:51 AM by Imca

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#173861: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:25:03 AM

It doesn't have to do with the EC, i was responding specifically to the idea that majority will is by definition better. I find the idea of the EC backwards as all hell.

AceofSpades Since: Apr, 2009 Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
#173862: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:40:29 AM

Responding to a general sentiment no one was really saying when everyone else was talking about a specific thing is not really helpful or contributory, man.

vandro Shop Owner from The little shop that wasn't Since: Jul, 2009
Shop Owner
#173863: Feb 11th 2017 at 1:59:36 AM

How am I to interpret "Rural areas should be dragged around by metropolitan areas by virtue of population size" other than "will of the majority is by definition better"

TobiasDrake (•̀⤙•́) (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Arm chopping is not a love language!
(•̀⤙•́)
#173864: Feb 11th 2017 at 4:11:57 AM

Will of the majority may not be perfect, but it is fundamentally superior to will of the arbitrarily-selected minority.

edited 11th Feb '17 4:12:10 AM by TobiasDrake

My Tumblr. Currently side-by-side liveblogging Digimon Adventure, sub vs dub.
Antiteilchen In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good. Since: Sep, 2013
In the pursuit of great, we failed to do good.
#173865: Feb 11th 2017 at 4:52:34 AM

I don't get why votes should be weighted more or less, depending on where you live. If every vote would be counted the same, how is this unfair to people in rural areas? Their vote would count the same as a person's in an urban area. Why should your opinion suddenly weight more depending on your geographical position? If we do that, we might as well count votes from people living in red houses twice and people living in blue houses three times. Makes as much sense.

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#173866: Feb 11th 2017 at 4:56:02 AM

The main problem is that the United States is a federal system, which means that the states are, constitutionally, semi-soveriegn. We do not and cannot have a national election for president, we have fifty local ones. The best we could do would be to have fifty popular elections, one in each state, but that would require an amendment to the constitution, which cant happen without the support of some of the very states who gain under the current system. So never going to happen.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
SeptimusHeap from Switzerland (Edited uphill both ways) Relationship Status: Mu
#173867: Feb 11th 2017 at 5:40:35 AM

Things are stepping up in California: Jerry Brown requests presidential disaster declaration for January storms. And Use of untested spillway again a possibility at crippled Oroville dam. Seems like water inflow at the highest dam of the US has forced them to open the normal spillway, but like at Glen Canyon dam in 1983 it can't handle such high water quantities and is being damaged by them. They are thinking of using another spillway, but that one would probably result in severe erosion in the area.

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
ironballs16 Since: Jul, 2009 Relationship Status: Owner of a lonely heart
#173868: Feb 11th 2017 at 6:11:27 AM

I still say a good way to "split the difference" - that hopefully doesn't fall into the Golden Mean Fallacy while I'm at it - is to have the EC go by apportioned voting rather than Winner-Takes-All, and base it on the State-wide vote rather than "Well, X won Y districts, so they get Z% of the EC for the State", as gerrymandering has already done that idea in. That way, the smaller/less-populated States don't get constantly overridden by the more populated ones, and most importantly it completely kills the "Well, Texas is a Red State, and California's a Blue State, so I'm not going to waste any time campaigning there" aspect of the Presidential race, since snagging a few more EC votes from your opponent in a State that traditionally goes for them could make a crucial difference.

"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Falrinn Since: Dec, 2014
#173869: Feb 11th 2017 at 6:14:45 AM

[up][up][up] We managed to amend the Constitution to include direct popular elections for Senators. Even though passing it meant 2/3rds of Senators at the time had to vote to abolish the system that gave them their jobs, and 3/4th of State legislatures had to vote power away from themselves.

Given this, I could see a scenario in a post-Trump America where there is the political will to switch to a national popular vote, either via a constitutional Amendment or an interstate compact.

edited 11th Feb '17 6:15:19 AM by Falrinn

Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#173870: Feb 11th 2017 at 6:20:36 AM

Changing to popular vote doesn't mean rural areas and small states have no say. This bullshit meme needs to die. Every state is appointed two senators from California to Alaska. This is on purpose and I think it's as good a system as any for making sure states get equal representation. The House, if it wasn't arbitrarily capped, would be weighted pretty heavily in favor of bigger blue states but that doesn't mean rural areas get no representation. They still have their own representatives in the House. Now, the president is different. As the representative of the American people there is absolutely no excuse why they shouldn't reflect their collective will by being elected through a straight popular vote. Is it possible that the majority could favor a terrible politician or support ideas that are bad? Yes, but it's our government and media's moral obligation to educate the populace in the truth so they can make appropriate decisions.

Heatth (X-Troper) Relationship Status: In Spades with myself
#173871: Feb 11th 2017 at 6:21:44 AM

How am I to interpret "Rural areas should be dragged around by metropolitan areas by virtue of population size" other than "will of the majority is by definition better"

A couple of things (that people haven't mentioned yet). First that that argument is a fallacy. It assumes everyone in metropolitan and rural areas vote identical, which is simply not true. The metropolitan areas won't "drag around" the rural areas because vote distribution is not that simple. Second, the electoral college don't protect the rural areas at all (it is still decided in a local popular vote and the swing states are not particularly rural). Finally, that is literally why local representation exist. Theoretically the metropolitan areas (or any particular are) shouldn't be dragging anyone around because congress and the senate won't allow it.

Political systems and fair representation are complicated things and I won't pretend to understand it perfectly or to know what is best. But from where I am sitting, it is clear the US has a fuck tons of problems that people insist in ignore or pretend it is the best there could be. Other countries have their shit together better than the US. Other countries wouldn't elect a president with a minority vote. Other countries have more than have more than 60% voter turnout. Other countries don't have large parts of their populations completely unrepresented because of arcane state rules. So why can't the US do it? Why so many USAmericans insist their system is great?

PS:I know you are not from the US, Vandro. My rant was not aimed to you, I was merely expressing my frustration with this type of attitude I've encountered around.

edited 11th Feb '17 6:24:40 AM by Heatth

DeMarquis (4 Score & 7 Years Ago)
#173872: Feb 11th 2017 at 7:17:03 AM

Its not that small states will have no say under a national popular vote, its that they would have less say than under the current system, and there is no reason for them to agree to that.

I'm done trying to sound smart. "Clear" is the new smart.
AngelusNox Warder of the damned from The guard of the gates of oblivion Since: Dec, 2014 Relationship Status: Married to the job
Warder of the damned
#173873: Feb 11th 2017 at 7:22:22 AM

Something we're way too aware to but here it is.

Vice: Every insult used by the right explained

Inter arma enim silent leges
Kostya (Unlucky Thirteen)
#173874: Feb 11th 2017 at 7:28:12 AM

And they do now? Most small states have a handful of EC votes and aren't swing states.

NativeJovian Jupiterian Local from Orlando, FL Since: Mar, 2014 Relationship Status: Maxing my social links
Jupiterian Local
#173875: Feb 11th 2017 at 7:30:13 AM

Make the EC proportional, maybe? And no faithless electors
That would make it much harder (but still not impossible) to win the popular vote and lose the electoral college, and is in my opinion the best option for fixing the system with as little change as possible. Unfortunately, how electoral college votes are cast is a matter of state law rather than federal law, and changing that would require a constitutional amendment (at which point you might as well just get rid of the electoral college entirely).

The main problem is that, unless every state went proportional at once, any state that did it would be shooting themselves in the foot. If California does it, then that benefits the GOP because California is reliably blue so them going proportional would give the GOP some votes they wouldn't have gotten otherwise. If Texas does it, then that benefits the Democrats, because Texas is reliably red so them going proportional would give the Democrats some votes they wouldn't have gotten otherwise. So there's no incentive for any state (or, perhaps more importantly, any state legislature) to make that change.

The best way to fix the system at the moment (ie, doesn't require a constitutional amendment, doesn't disadvantage the party you like in the meantime) is for states to write laws saying that all of their electoral college votes will go to the winner of the national popular vote. This would effectively abolish the electoral college, can be implemented piecemeal instead of having to be done all at once, and doesn't mean states are screwing themselves in the meantime.

Making the EC proportional would've made Hillary's loss even worse.
No it wouldn't have. If all states cast their electoral college votes proportionally, Hillary would have won. Trump only won because he had a very slim majority in a handful of key states. In a proportional system, those states would have split their votes between Hillary and Trump, and Hillary's larger margin in other states (ie, what allowed her to win the national popular vote) would get her more electoral college votes overall than Trump.

That does raise the concern of only needing to win the largest metro areas at the expense of the rest of the country, no?
That's still true in the current system. No one gives a shit about Wyoming, or Alaska, or the Dakotas, because they're all large, rural states with tiny populations and thus only three electoral college votes. (They're also all reliably red, for what it's worth.)

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

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