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Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM
At least speaking for myself, the reason why liberal Democrats don't like leftists is because they talk non-stop about how much they hate us (and as of today, call us Nazis) and like their whole argument is based on this idea that only they are sincere about political belief and since we don't have the same economic positions as them, we must be faking it. And they excoriate Democrats for losing the election, even though their viewpoint is all about arguing that all Democrats no one should ever vote for a Democrat.
Note when I say they, thinking about the main "Left Twitter" people.
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Look, sorry about the Nazi comment. Particularly when it comes to the people here, I don't think that's much of a risk, but I think there's a very real danger that other elements of the center could end up becoming Les Collaborateurs for the same reason the center in Weimar Germany did: an unwilling to give ground to the left on any circumstances.
I voted for Clinton in the election, but there are plenty of people who stayed home out of despair in the core parts of the Obama coalition; union voters, young voters, southern minorities, all of which had lower than expected turnouts in key states, and leaned very slightly more towards Trump than was expected. Getting those disillusioned voters to come back to the polls is the only way we're going to stop Trump.
edited 7th Feb '17 11:33:25 AM by CaptainCapsase
I mean, I understand what you meant. Not the best way to say it.
It's the same problem as described by Dr. King in the letter from the Birmingham jail, only with fascism instead of racism.
Biggest threat to progress isn't the fascists, it's the moderates. The people who think there's "two sides to everything" and that both sides are created equal.
edited 7th Feb '17 11:38:53 AM by unnoun
@172,901:
Well, for starters, most of the Democrats oppose the first three items on the platform.
- Pass a constitutional amendment to put an end to Washington corruption and bring about election reform: This part talks about banning Super-PACS, which a lot of Democrats (and Republicans) take money from. It also says we should ban contributions by private individuals, whereas most Democrats (and Republicans) take massive amounts of money from individual rich people.
- Re-regulate Wall Street and hold white-collar criminals accountable: This part talks about holding "white collar criminals accountable", something the Obama Administration did NOT do. It says we should re-regulate the banks. Hillary Clinton opposed bringing back Glass-Steagle, which prohibited banks from gambling with depositor money (she supported a regulation called Dodd-Frank, but reportedly that one's weaker and has a lot more loopholes in it).
- End billionaire and corporate tax dodging, fix the system to benefit middle-class and poor people: I'd bet anything that a lot of the corporations and billionaires who donate to Democrats have done their share of tax dodging. As well as the ones who donate to Republicans and the ones who donate to both parties.
As for the rest:
- Defend free speech and expression: Not sure the parties have actually argued about or made policy on this one much.
- Oppose bigotry: This is one of the ones where the JD are pretty much the same as regular Democrats. And that's one of the things that makes even most establishment Democrats better than Republicans.
- Make the minimum wage a living wage and tie it to inflation: Not actually sure where most Democrats stand on tying the living wage to inflation. Most of them agree with raising the minimum wage, but they differ with each other on how high to raise it, so whether they really want it to be a living wage depends on the individual Democrat. It's another one where Democrats are better than Republicans, though.
- Ensure universal healthcare as a right: A lot of Dems (and virtually all Republicans) are against this one. They support Obamacare, which is better than nothing (whereas Republicans would rather we just have nothing), but that's not the same thing as universal health care. Even Obama's idea would've been a public option, not universal health care.
- Ensure universal education as a right: Another one that many Dems (and virtually all Republicans) oppose.
- End unnecessary wars and nation building: Virtually all Democrats outside the JD movement oppose this one. Obama escalated Syria and Afghanistan and almost no Democrat called him out on it. The Republicans are a little more hawkish then the Democrats, but even the Democrats are pretty war-hungry.
- End the failed war on drugs: This is more a disagreement of degree. Most Democrats seem to support legalizing marijuana and certain other drugs (which Republicans seem to oppose), but I have yet to hear many of them talk about ending the war on all drugs that aren't immediately deadly, which I think is what the JD is arguing for.
Create the new new deal: I have yet to hear any Democrats outside this group voice an opinion on this one.
Create the renewable energy revolution: Another difference of degrees. Most Democrats support giving money to green companies, but given what I've heard Kyle Kulinski (who's one of the founders of this group) say, I'm guessing they'd want to move a lot faster on this than establishment dems do (of course, this still makes mainstream Dems better than Reps, who are pushing us full speed ahead away from green tech and toward making climate change worse).
Block bad trade deals like the TPP and oppose outsourcing that will further damage the middle-class: A lot of Dems have voted for the sorts of deals the JD platform is referring to here.
End constitutional overreaches: The Democrats were all on-board with this one when it was Bush who was guilty of constitutional overreaches, but they didn't say anything when Obama went even further than Bush did. Only time will tell whether they'll flip their position again due to Trump's overreaches or whether attacking our civil liberties will remain something both parties agree on.
Ban arming human rights violators: This is another one where most Democrats are pretty bad (not that Republicans are any better). The money keeps flowing to Saudi Arabia regardless of which party is in power.
Defend and protect women’s rights: Here's another one where there really isn't much difference between the mainstream Dems and JD (and they're both better than Republicans).
Ensure paid vacation time, sick time, family leave, childcare: Another issue that neither party brings up much.
Protect Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid: This is one where a lot of mainstream Dems agree with Justice Dems, but a lot of others say they agree and then they buckle to reach a compromise with the Republicans (as the platform itself points out).
Implement comprehensive immigration reform: Another one where the mainstream Dems and JD agree, though I expect a lot of mainstream Dems will buckle when push comes to shove.
Enact police reform: Mainstream Dems like to act like they agree with this one, but a leak (not the same one that I've been debating on this forum) showed that the DNC advised candidates "don't offer and concrete policies" when it comes to this one.
Combat homelessness: Mainstream Dems agree on this one.
Enact common-sense gun regulation: Ditto as combating homelessness.
Abolish the death penalty: Seems like mainstream Dems TEND to agree on this one more often than not, but there are a lot of exceptions.
@Capsase- Besides you once again being super-inflamatory for no reason except to assert you are better than everyone else. Which I"m sick and tired of because every time people call you on it, you fake apologize for playing devil's advocate.
But part of what is particularly galling is that you keep going on about how Democrats need to compromise with Trump (I'm guessing because you like some of his stated economic positions and you don't really care about any socially liberal policies and positions) and you accuse us of being collaborators.
And even acknowledging any validity to the Nazi comparison, I'll say that if the Center/Center Left helps Trump by sniping at Leftists, Leftists themselves also do this by their sniping at the Center/Center Left. I mean seriously, how are people who go on about Democrats being awful possibly helping to stop Trump from being reelected/win Democratic seats?
@Capsase: "Comments on the internet have enough chaff that you can use them to come to whatever conclusion you care to about any particular group if you cherry pick well enough." While I don't think I'm cherry-picking comments here (and you're not showing a lot of evidence of your claims on this), you are right on this point, so I'd rather stop here if you don't mind. The argument I'm trying to make (that the division in the Democratic party is more about people's opinion on Hillary and Sanders than actual policy positions, and you can find both "progressives" and "neoliberals" on both sides of the divide) is being lost here.
1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV![]()
I emphasize a need to compromise in terms of how elected officials actually conduct themselves in office in terms of how they vote (and that was oriented towards getting center right Republicans to check Trump because there's literally nothing the democrats can do to stop them in their current position), and am in favor of working with our enemies when our interests happen to align; there's no point in cutting off your nose to spite the face.
This discussion is about the platform they should be campaigning on, and even there I'm calling for compromise between the left and the center. In that area, I definitely think the democrats are making some promising first steps, though I'm worried that the centrist base and to a greater extent moneyed interests backing the democrats won't go along with that, the former of which is what I'm speaking to here, particularly in terms of the people who have expressed no interest whatsoever in trying to find common ground with the "herbal tea party", and simply want them to come home to the party without any concessions on the part of the center.
edited 7th Feb '17 11:41:14 AM by CaptainCapsase
They're not even bothering with the pretense anymore.
Long story short, the WH is more or less admitting that they are going to call any news that isn't sufficiently supportive of Trump "Fake News".
Disgusted, but not surprised![]()
I'm still as misanthropic as I was before DeVos was confirmed. There's nothing to be disappointed about when you already think people are garbage.
edited 7th Feb '17 11:39:06 AM by CrimsonZephyr
"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."@Luigisan 98: Japanese lady here, were currently just as fucked as the Amercians.
The LDP controls 70% of the diet and the prime minister, and can re-write our constitution as they please, there was even talk last year about re-writing it to make us a monarchy agian from within the LDP and I am really fucking glad I havent heard that one again.
There is a grand total of zero other viable parties, and the JCP has been declared terrorists and monitored by the koanchosa-cho as a method of killing there recruitment.
Were about 40 years behind time in the form of womens rights, until 2012 your husband could legaly rape you, and our lady politicians? Yea they get laughed off the stand when they try to talk....
THEEN there is the whole issue of karoshi but that would require a whole post of its own.
We are not going to be getting any brain drain at all because bluntly we don't have any thing to offer if people look into it beyond anime.
@Imca: Japan is still one of the most economically powerful countries in the world, despite its aging population, and the extreme xenophobia makes a brain drain rather unlikely outside of very dire circumstances, even if it makes encouraging immigration to make up for the declining native born population politically untenable. Geopolitically speaking, it could be a lot worse for them. They could have an absolute lunatic in charge for example.
edited 7th Feb '17 11:46:04 AM by CaptainCapsase
Ehhh, I will give you that Abe is at least somewhat sane, but right now he has more power then your Orangatan so honestly both scare me about equaly. :/
Especialy given that was not a joke about the talks to return to a monarchy.
Also the immigration bit wont happen because of aformentioned xenophobia, we still havent gotten the idea that the koreans arent just greedy bitches for asking for an apology over there treatment in WWII
edited 7th Feb '17 11:48:38 AM by Imca
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If anything, Japan may end up shifting towards the Chinese model of authoritarian technocracy rather than something really crazy. Which isn't pleasant, but at least appears to be stable and predictable. The real question is whether the Japanese government cuts a deal with China or decides to try and join Trump's mad quest to contain them by any means necessary.
edited 7th Feb '17 11:51:42 AM by CaptainCapsase
To explain Capsase's point for folks who didn't understand it. He was pointing out that there are folks out there who'd rather Trump (or at least Pence) be president than Sanders of Warren. That's a dangerous place to go and I actually don't think he's entirely off base in saying that some people here have given the impression of holding that view at times.
Or at least the view that opposing Sanders is more important than opposing Trump.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

edited 7th Feb '17 11:26:14 AM by CaptainCapsase