TVTropes Now available in the app store!
Open

Follow TV Tropes

Following

The General US Politics Thread

Go To

Nov 2023 Mod notice:


There may be other, more specific, threads about some aspects of US politics, but this one tends to act as a hub for all sorts of related news and information, so it's usually one of the busiest OTC threads.

If you're new to OTC, it's worth reading the Introduction to On-Topic Conversations and the On-Topic Conversations debate guidelines before posting here.

Rumor-based, fear-mongering and/or inflammatory statements that damage the quality of the thread will be thumped. Off-topic posts will also be thumped. Repeat offenders may be suspended.

If time spent moderating this thread remains a distraction from moderation of the wiki itself, the thread will need to be locked. We want to avoid that, so please follow the forum rules when posting here.


In line with the general forum rules, 'gravedancing' is prohibited here. If you're celebrating someone's death or hoping that they die, your post will get thumped. This rule applies regardless of what the person you're discussing has said or done.

Edited by Mrph1 on Nov 30th 2023 at 11:03:59 AM

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173001: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:25:37 AM

[up][up] I'm not saying the center has a nazi problem (that would be the right), I'm saying there's a danger they'll become collaborators to avoid having to give ground to the left, which is precisely what happened in Weimar Germany that allowed Hitler to seize power.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:26:14 AM by CaptainCapsase

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#173002: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:26:13 AM

At least speaking for myself, the reason why liberal Democrats don't like leftists is because they talk non-stop about how much they hate us (and as of today, call us Nazis) and like their whole argument is based on this idea that only they are sincere about political belief and since we don't have the same economic positions as them, we must be faking it. And they excoriate Democrats for losing the election, even though their viewpoint is all about arguing that all Democrats no one should ever vote for a Democrat.

Note when I say they, thinking about the main "Left Twitter" people.

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#173003: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:27:03 AM

OK OK, enough with too much Nazism!

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173004: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:30:07 AM

[up][up] Look, sorry about the Nazi comment. Particularly when it comes to the people here, I don't think that's much of a risk, but I think there's a very real danger that other elements of the center could end up becoming Les Collaborateurs for the same reason the center in Weimar Germany did: an unwilling to give ground to the left on any circumstances.

I voted for Clinton in the election, but there are plenty of people who stayed home out of despair in the core parts of the Obama coalition; union voters, young voters, southern minorities, all of which had lower than expected turnouts in key states, and leaned very slightly more towards Trump than was expected. Getting those disillusioned voters to come back to the polls is the only way we're going to stop Trump.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:33:25 AM by CaptainCapsase

unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#173005: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:30:59 AM

I mean, I understand what you meant. Not the best way to say it.

It's the same problem as described by Dr. King in the letter from the Birmingham jail, only with fascism instead of racism.

Biggest threat to progress isn't the fascists, it's the moderates. The people who think there's "two sides to everything" and that both sides are created equal.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:38:53 AM by unnoun

SeriesOfNumbers Since: Jun, 2013
#173006: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:31:27 AM

@172,901:

Well, for starters, most of the Democrats oppose the first three items on the platform.

- Pass a constitutional amendment to put an end to Washington corruption and bring about election reform: This part talks about banning Super-PACS, which a lot of Democrats (and Republicans) take money from. It also says we should ban contributions by private individuals, whereas most Democrats (and Republicans) take massive amounts of money from individual rich people.

- Re-regulate Wall Street and hold white-collar criminals accountable: This part talks about holding "white collar criminals accountable", something the Obama Administration did NOT do. It says we should re-regulate the banks. Hillary Clinton opposed bringing back Glass-Steagle, which prohibited banks from gambling with depositor money (she supported a regulation called Dodd-Frank, but reportedly that one's weaker and has a lot more loopholes in it).

- End billionaire and corporate tax dodging, fix the system to benefit middle-class and poor people: I'd bet anything that a lot of the corporations and billionaires who donate to Democrats have done their share of tax dodging. As well as the ones who donate to Republicans and the ones who donate to both parties.

As for the rest:

- Defend free speech and expression: Not sure the parties have actually argued about or made policy on this one much.

- Oppose bigotry: This is one of the ones where the JD are pretty much the same as regular Democrats. And that's one of the things that makes even most establishment Democrats better than Republicans.

- Make the minimum wage a living wage and tie it to inflation: Not actually sure where most Democrats stand on tying the living wage to inflation. Most of them agree with raising the minimum wage, but they differ with each other on how high to raise it, so whether they really want it to be a living wage depends on the individual Democrat. It's another one where Democrats are better than Republicans, though.

- Ensure universal healthcare as a right: A lot of Dems (and virtually all Republicans) are against this one. They support Obamacare, which is better than nothing (whereas Republicans would rather we just have nothing), but that's not the same thing as universal health care. Even Obama's idea would've been a public option, not universal health care.

- Ensure universal education as a right: Another one that many Dems (and virtually all Republicans) oppose.

- End unnecessary wars and nation building: Virtually all Democrats outside the JD movement oppose this one. Obama escalated Syria and Afghanistan and almost no Democrat called him out on it. The Republicans are a little more hawkish then the Democrats, but even the Democrats are pretty war-hungry.

- End the failed war on drugs: This is more a disagreement of degree. Most Democrats seem to support legalizing marijuana and certain other drugs (which Republicans seem to oppose), but I have yet to hear many of them talk about ending the war on all drugs that aren't immediately deadly, which I think is what the JD is arguing for.

Create the new new deal: I have yet to hear any Democrats outside this group voice an opinion on this one.

Create the renewable energy revolution: Another difference of degrees. Most Democrats support giving money to green companies, but given what I've heard Kyle Kulinski (who's one of the founders of this group) say, I'm guessing they'd want to move a lot faster on this than establishment dems do (of course, this still makes mainstream Dems better than Reps, who are pushing us full speed ahead away from green tech and toward making climate change worse).

Block bad trade deals like the TPP and oppose outsourcing that will further damage the middle-class: A lot of Dems have voted for the sorts of deals the JD platform is referring to here.

End constitutional overreaches: The Democrats were all on-board with this one when it was Bush who was guilty of constitutional overreaches, but they didn't say anything when Obama went even further than Bush did. Only time will tell whether they'll flip their position again due to Trump's overreaches or whether attacking our civil liberties will remain something both parties agree on.

Ban arming human rights violators: This is another one where most Democrats are pretty bad (not that Republicans are any better). The money keeps flowing to Saudi Arabia regardless of which party is in power.

Defend and protect women’s rights: Here's another one where there really isn't much difference between the mainstream Dems and JD (and they're both better than Republicans).

Ensure paid vacation time, sick time, family leave, childcare: Another issue that neither party brings up much.

Protect Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid: This is one where a lot of mainstream Dems agree with Justice Dems, but a lot of others say they agree and then they buckle to reach a compromise with the Republicans (as the platform itself points out).

Implement comprehensive immigration reform: Another one where the mainstream Dems and JD agree, though I expect a lot of mainstream Dems will buckle when push comes to shove.

Enact police reform: Mainstream Dems like to act like they agree with this one, but a leak (not the same one that I've been debating on this forum) showed that the DNC advised candidates "don't offer and concrete policies" when it comes to this one.

Combat homelessness: Mainstream Dems agree on this one.

Enact common-sense gun regulation: Ditto as combating homelessness.

Abolish the death penalty: Seems like mainstream Dems TEND to agree on this one more often than not, but there are a lot of exceptions.

CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173007: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:32:29 AM

[up][up] That's not quite the point I was making, though it's a good enough example.

Hodor2 Since: Jan, 2015
#173008: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:32:40 AM

@Capsase- Besides you once again being super-inflamatory for no reason except to assert you are better than everyone else. Which I"m sick and tired of because every time people call you on it, you fake apologize for playing devil's advocate.

But part of what is particularly galling is that you keep going on about how Democrats need to compromise with Trump (I'm guessing because you like some of his stated economic positions and you don't really care about any socially liberal policies and positions) and you accuse us of being collaborators.

And even acknowledging any validity to the Nazi comparison, I'll say that if the Center/Center Left helps Trump by sniping at Leftists, Leftists themselves also do this by their sniping at the Center/Center Left. I mean seriously, how are people who go on about Democrats being awful possibly helping to stop Trump from being reelected/win Democratic seats?

IFwanderer use political terms to describe, not insult from Earth Since: Aug, 2013 Relationship Status: Wishfully thinking
use political terms to describe, not insult
#173009: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:33:21 AM

@Capsase: "Comments on the internet have enough chaff that you can use them to come to whatever conclusion you care to about any particular group if you cherry pick well enough." While I don't think I'm cherry-picking comments here (and you're not showing a lot of evidence of your claims on this), you are right on this point, so I'd rather stop here if you don't mind. The argument I'm trying to make (that the division in the Democratic party is more about people's opinion on Hillary and Sanders than actual policy positions, and you can find both "progressives" and "neoliberals" on both sides of the divide) is being lost here.

1 2 We are what we pretend to be, so we must be careful about what we pretend to be. -KV
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173010: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:35:01 AM

[up][up] I emphasize a need to compromise in terms of how elected officials actually conduct themselves in office in terms of how they vote (and that was oriented towards getting center right Republicans to check Trump because there's literally nothing the democrats can do to stop them in their current position), and am in favor of working with our enemies when our interests happen to align; there's no point in cutting off your nose to spite the face.

This discussion is about the platform they should be campaigning on, and even there I'm calling for compromise between the left and the center. In that area, I definitely think the democrats are making some promising first steps, though I'm worried that the centrist base and to a greater extent moneyed interests backing the democrats won't go along with that, the former of which is what I'm speaking to here, particularly in terms of the people who have expressed no interest whatsoever in trying to find common ground with the "herbal tea party", and simply want them to come home to the party without any concessions on the part of the center.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:41:14 AM by CaptainCapsase

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#173011: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:36:34 AM

[up][up] I see.

Also, everybody still feeling a silver lining of courage?

edited 7th Feb '17 11:37:03 AM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#173012: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:38:16 AM

They're not even bothering with the pretense anymore.

Long story short, the WH is more or less admitting that they are going to call any news that isn't sufficiently supportive of Trump "Fake News".

Disgusted, but not surprised
CrimsonZephyr Would that it were so simple. from Massachusetts Since: Aug, 2010 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Would that it were so simple.
#173013: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:38:43 AM

[up][up]I'm still as misanthropic as I was before DeVos was confirmed. There's nothing to be disappointed about when you already think people are garbage.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:39:06 AM by CrimsonZephyr

"For all those whose cares have been our concern, the work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives, and the dream shall never die."
Imca (Veteran)
#173014: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:40:17 AM

@Luigisan 98: Japanese lady here, were currently just as fucked as the Amercians.

The LDP controls 70% of the diet and the prime minister, and can re-write our constitution as they please, there was even talk last year about re-writing it to make us a monarchy agian from within the LDP and I am really fucking glad I havent heard that one again.

There is a grand total of zero other viable parties, and the JCP has been declared terrorists and monitored by the koanchosa-cho as a method of killing there recruitment.

Were about 40 years behind time in the form of womens rights, until 2012 your husband could legaly rape you, and our lady politicians? Yea they get laughed off the stand when they try to talk....

THEEN there is the whole issue of karoshi but that would require a whole post of its own.

We are not going to be getting any brain drain at all because bluntly we don't have any thing to offer if people look into it beyond anime.

M84 Oh, bother. from Our little blue planet Since: Jun, 2010 Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Oh, bother.
#173015: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:40:19 AM

[up][up] ...Just wait till Sessions is confirmed. Just when you think you've hit rock bottom, the GOP throws a shovel at your head.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:40:29 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised
Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#173016: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:40:35 AM

[up][up][up] Which I firmly believe it's not healthy at all to you.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:41:50 AM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173017: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:43:52 AM

@Imca: Japan is still one of the most economically powerful countries in the world, despite its aging population, and the extreme xenophobia makes a brain drain rather unlikely outside of very dire circumstances, even if it makes encouraging immigration to make up for the declining native born population politically untenable. Geopolitically speaking, it could be a lot worse for them. They could have an absolute lunatic in charge for example. tongue

edited 7th Feb '17 11:46:04 AM by CaptainCapsase

Imca (Veteran)
#173018: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:47:21 AM

[up] Ehhh, I will give you that Abe is at least somewhat sane, but right now he has more power then your Orangatan so honestly both scare me about equaly. :/

Especialy given that was not a joke about the talks to return to a monarchy.

Also the immigration bit wont happen because of aformentioned xenophobia, we still havent gotten the idea that the koreans arent just greedy bitches for asking for an apology over there treatment in WWII

edited 7th Feb '17 11:48:38 AM by Imca

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#173019: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:47:49 AM

No one should feel the coming of an eternal black future over this, it won't be that way.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:48:18 AM by Luigisan98

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
CaptainCapsase from Orbiting Sagittarius A* Since: Jan, 2015
#173020: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:49:38 AM

[up][up] If anything, Japan may end up shifting towards the Chinese model of authoritarian technocracy rather than something really crazy. Which isn't pleasant, but at least appears to be stable and predictable. The real question is whether the Japanese government cuts a deal with China or decides to try and join Trump's mad quest to contain them by any means necessary.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:51:42 AM by CaptainCapsase

Luigisan98 A wandering user from Venezuelan Muscat Since: Oct, 2013 Relationship Status: I <3 love!
A wandering user
#173021: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:50:57 AM

[up] Still feeling for the worst in anywhere?

The only good fanboy, is a redeemed fanboy.
unnoun Since: Jan, 2012
#173022: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:50:58 AM

It can be if we ignore it and do nothing.

Is the point you're failing to get.

Now, you're right that we shouldn't fall into hopelessness and despair and give up and stop trying.

But the idea that things can't get worse is asinine, and fairly likely to ensure that they in fact will.

Perseus Since: Nov, 2009
#173023: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:51:43 AM

[up][up][up][up] No, seriously, can you stop? You keep saying "oh, things will be okay, stop being so negative" but you never offer any actual reasoning for why we should believe that. Blind optimism does no good for anything or anyone.

edited 7th Feb '17 11:55:38 AM by Perseus

Imca (Veteran)
#173024: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:52:35 AM

I think we will join Trump if any thing, while we hate nearly every one in SEA, we have a special place of hatred for the Chinese....

But this is drifting off topic when I just wanted to answer some ones question. >.<

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from A handcart to hell (4 Score & 7 Years Ago) Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
#173025: Feb 7th 2017 at 11:56:58 AM

To explain Capsase's point for folks who didn't understand it. He was pointing out that there are folks out there who'd rather Trump (or at least Pence) be president than Sanders of Warren. That's a dangerous place to go and I actually don't think he's entirely off base in saying that some people here have given the impression of holding that view at times.

Or at least the view that opposing Sanders is more important than opposing Trump.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

Total posts: 417,856
Top